Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
End of through trains
Bristol to Waterloo?

 
Please sign our petition
(more information)
 
Campaign links here
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 05:55 29 Nov 2021
- Covid: Dutch police arrest quarantine hotel escapee couple
* Covid: South Africa's president calls for lifting of Omicron travel bans
- Venezuelan migrants seeking a new home in Chile
* Barbados prepares to cut ties with the Queen
- The underwater 'kites' generating electricity as they move
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 03/12/21 - TWSW AGM - online
09/12/21 - Award Event - CRN
19/01/22 - MTUG - regular meeting
08/03/22 - WWRUG AGM - B-o-A
Random Image
Train RunningCancelled
04:57 Reading to Redhill
06:43 Redhill to Reading
06:46 Reading to Gatwick Airport
07:01 Shalford to Reading
08:32 Gatwick Airport to Reading
Short Run
21:15 Penzance to London Paddington
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
November 29, 2021, 06:00:48 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[221] Stranded on a train for 17 hours !
[128] Masks To Become Compulsory On Public Transport Again
[84] XC short notice alterations due to driver unavailability.
[53] Are the railways fit for their (future) purpose?
[52] Day one - cruising in the time of Covid
[36] Great Western Railway: on-board catering, buffets, Travelling ...
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7]
  Print  
Author Topic: NEW HEATHROW HUB  (Read 39329 times)
eightf48544
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4542


View Profile Email
« Reply #90 on: January 20, 2009, 08:16:45 pm »


I think the gradient up from the main line at Yatton would be much too steep.  The airport is quite high up compared with the rail-line.

Agreed on that one, though, John: Yatton is about 8 metres above sea level, while BIA, only some 8 km away, is at least 180!  Grin

That's a gradient of the order of 1 in 45. Steep, agreed, but here's an example of a branch to an international arrival / departure point that's 1 in 30:

http://www.craigrailpics.fotopic.net/c1628947.html

Though in practice the line would diverge a mile or so after Nailsea, and would be only 5km long =  1 in 29 average. Also the first stretch would have to be on an viaduct that would get rather high before the line then bored deep into the hillside. So I think we're stuck with the buses.  

Folkestone is  steep but St Pancras Thameslink to Blackfriars is 1:27 which I believe is now the steepest grade on Network Rail.

Call for a stop at Coventry to be included (link below.)

Those 9 words sum up the problems of HSR in the UK (United Kingdom).

Who next after Coventry? Milton Keynes? Royal Leamington Spa?

Coventry is less than an hour from London already. Does it need a HSL? (Does B'ham? It's only 1.15 at the mo)


That's one advantage of the old GC» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line) route North of Alyesbury there's no really no big town until Leicester apart from Rugby.
Logged
Lee
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 7468


GBR - The Emperor's New Rail Network


View Profile WWW
« Reply #91 on: January 20, 2009, 08:48:02 pm »

That's one advantage of the old GC» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line) route North of Alyesbury there's no really no big town until Leicester apart from Rugby.

Which could be a problem:

Ruth Kelly even floated the idea in the Commons in January 2008. However, getting the line through Rugby could be nigh on impossible, in the face of likely significant opposition (sparked in part by Central Railway's earlier plans to run lorries on trains on the line close to homes built in recent years), and the fact that some of the route through Rugby forms part of a nature reserve (links below.)
http://www.rugbytoday.co.uk/news/Plans-to-open-historic-rail.3684424.jp

http://www.rugbytoday.co.uk/editors-viewpoint/Editor39s-Comment-Great-Central-line.3684405.jp

http://www.cwn.org.uk/business/a-z/c/chiltern-railways/2000/08/000810-new-central-scheme.htm

http://www.rugby.gov.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=468&pageNumber=37

Indeed, part of the trackbed at the former Rugby Central station is now a pond....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rugby_Central_station_remains.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rugby_Central_station_remains2.jpg

Although I am pro nature reserves, the rail link would do more for the environment.

And as for the noise - its a "not in my back yard" argument. I am sure everyone in the UK (United Kingdom) would embrace less lorries on the roads!

Not the Rugby folks, from what I can gather....Central Railway were so taken aback by the scale of opposition that their revised proposal bypassed the town altogether.

Here's an overhead shot of part of the route through Rugby (link below.)
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/stations/r/rugby_central/index46.shtml

A good further selection of Rugby Central photos can be found below.
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/stations/r/rugby_central/index2.shtml
Logged

I have been watching The Damned United, which is a lesson relevant for today.
simonw
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 576


View Profile Email
« Reply #92 on: January 20, 2009, 08:53:21 pm »

Surely Birmingham should be the primary hub for a High Speed Network, not Heathrow?
Logged
paul7575
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4960


View Profile
« Reply #93 on: January 20, 2009, 09:14:40 pm »

I think it is fair to say that Ruth Kelly's announcement implying the GC» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line) route would be used as far as Rugby was totally ridiculed about this time last year. Their were rumours she had completely misunderstood her briefing...

Paul
Logged
Lee
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 7468


GBR - The Emperor's New Rail Network


View Profile WWW
« Reply #94 on: January 21, 2009, 10:33:06 pm »

Ministers have set up four more high-speed rail companies similar to the one created last week to develop a new link to Heathrow (link below.)
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article5537004.ece

Companies House documents show High Speed 2 was formed last week, and has two senior civil servants, Robert Linnard and Timothy Well-burn, as directors. They are also directors of four more High Speed companies, numbers 3 to 6, set up at the same time.

Further related article link.
http://www.transportbriefing.co.uk/story.php?id=5478

Jim Steer (Greenguage21) gives his view in the link below.
http://www.nce.co.uk/opinion/2009/01/jims_blog__whats_next_for_high_speed_2.html;jsessionid=C1CD93134DA1F357174C12219E56FA0E
Logged

I have been watching The Damned United, which is a lesson relevant for today.
willc
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2330


View Profile
« Reply #95 on: January 22, 2009, 12:22:47 am »

What Ruth Kelly actually said was the following (taken from Hansard)

"It is also why we have committed to look in future at whether disused rail lines such as the one between Birmingham and London might be brought back into use."

That was why she was ridiculed, because there is no disused rail line between London and Birmingham. She never said anything about Rugby or the Great Central. But her script was provided by DafT....

While the GC» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line) was well engineered by comparison with many of its Victorian forebears, it still remains a piece of 19th century engineering, built for the trains of its day, not an LGV (Large Goods Vehicle), and a new alignment towards Birmingham following the M40 before peeling off north-east to serve the airport at Birmingham International and on to the WCML (West Coast Main Line) north-east of the city is the way things are most likely to go. You would be using an existing transport corridor much of the way, like High Speed 1 (M2/M20) and LGV Nord (French autoroute A1) so any further disruption is minimised.
Logged
Lee
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 7468


GBR - The Emperor's New Rail Network


View Profile WWW
« Reply #96 on: January 22, 2009, 09:58:16 am »

Fair enough. I think that was the general assumption at the time.

Here's how Transport Briefing (who have a reputation for knowing their stuff) reported it:

Secretary of State for Transport Ruth Kelly has said in Parliament that she is open-minded to the possibility of reopening the Great Central Main Line to provide a new inter-city link to Birmingham (link below.)
http://www.transportbriefing.co.uk/story.php?id=4650

Reopening the line, which until the 1960s provided a route for trains from London Marylebone to Manchester, via Rugby in Warwickshire, is one option being examined following warnings that the West Coast Main Line could run out of capacity as soon as 2015, despite an ^8.6bn upgrade scheduled for completion by the end of 2008 (Transport Briefing 15/06/07).

Speaking in the Commons on Wednesday (8 January), Ruth Kelly said: "I retain an open mind whether or not we need, for example, to re-open a disused rail line between London and Birmingham, whether we should have a high speed rail link which links London to Birmingham, or even beyond to Manchester or so forth, or indeed whether other modes of transport should be encouraged such as roads." The former Grand Central Main Line is the only disused rail alignment that could be reopened as part of a new London-Birmingham rail link.

Interestingly, the member for Rugby played a prominent part in the debate, but didnt pick up on the possible link...
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 11:18:28 am by Lee Fletcher » Logged

I have been watching The Damned United, which is a lesson relevant for today.
willc
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2330


View Profile
« Reply #97 on: January 22, 2009, 01:55:38 pm »

But I think they were just being kind to her.
Logged
Btline
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4782



View Profile
« Reply #98 on: January 22, 2009, 09:22:44 pm »

The thing about the GC» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line) line, is that it is dead straight!

But I wish they would shelve this "join the WCML (West Coast Main Line) at the Trent Valley" idea.

When are the gov going to realise that line speed improvements need to be reduced NORTH of Crewe to get the Anglo - Scottish/ North West England services quicker. We need a 200 mph line all the way if we are building one. All or nothing. Not a cut price option which will benefit few - the B'ham / Manchester times are ok at the moment and they are the only ones which would see a large % reduction.

And the other reason for HSL all the way is that it needs to be European gauge all the way - so double decker goods trains (and TGV (Train a Grande Vitesse) style passenger stock) can operate.
Logged
willc
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2330


View Profile
« Reply #99 on: January 23, 2009, 01:27:51 am »

a. To call the GC» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line) dead straight gives a whole new meaning to straight. Long sweeping curves perhaps, but nothing new in that, even in the 1890s. Brunel did it just as well in the 1830s, and with picks, shovels and wheelbarrows, rather than steam excavators.

b. Even if an initial bit of HSL only got to the Trent Valley, it would still take 30-45 minutes off London-Glasgow and Edinburgh timings, down to about 3hrs 45mins - not to be sniffed at for 330-odd miles and getting into the time territory (below four hours) where rail really starts to hurt planes.

c. The government has, on the quiet, set up companies called High Speed 3-6, as well as High Speed 2, hinting that there could be much more to come. See http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article5537004.ece

d. You can't operate double-decker goods trains (I'm assuming you mean something like the far more generous North American double-stack container gauge) on any of the UIC loading gauges. For more on gauges, see http://www.btinternet.com/~joyce.whitchurch/gauges/text.htm. A double-deck passenger train, like the latest generation of TGV (Train a Grande Vitesse), needs far less headroom than two containers.
Logged
Btline
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4782



View Profile
« Reply #100 on: January 23, 2009, 06:24:28 pm »

A- the gc line is pretty straight btw ayles and rugby.

B- what about other journeys? Not everyone goes to London.

D- on European guage lines you can operate goods with 2 containers on top of each other.
Logged
willc
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2330


View Profile
« Reply #101 on: January 24, 2009, 12:21:31 pm »

Well show me a picture of a double-stack container train in Europe please. You won't be able to, because they do not operate in Europe.

A google search of "double-stack container trains" reveals references only to North America (no problems with electric catenary in the land of the big diesel) and India, where they have been looking at trying it out with specially-installed catenary, at a height of 6.8m-7.5m (22ft 3in-24ft 7in) above the rails - which one depends on whether you load the containers into well wagons or on flat-beds.

European standard height for contact wires is about 5m (16ft) - I'm sure electric train can confirm this - so you simply cannot fit two stacked standard 9ft 6in shipping containers underneath.

PS: Without the traffic to and from London, Virgin and NXEC (National Express East Coast) wouldn't have a business. Why do you think all LGVs (Large Goods Vehicle) go to Paris and Italy's Diretissima lines go to Rome? Not all the German lines go to Berlin, but that's because the country is bigger and developed differently, due to the East-West split, and because the regions are far stronger, politically and economically, than they are in this country.
Logged
Btline
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4782



View Profile
« Reply #102 on: January 24, 2009, 06:07:06 pm »

I must be mistaken..... Huh I am sure that there was a campaign to restore the GC» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line) line so double deck goods could be run.

I was talking about large traffic flows like B'ham and Manchester to Glasgow (a lot of people fly/ drive).
Logged
paul7575
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4960


View Profile
« Reply #103 on: January 24, 2009, 09:17:36 pm »

I must be mistaken..... Huh I am sure that there was a campaign to restore the GC» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line) line so double deck goods could be run.


I think that the 'Great Central' freight proposal was for gauge clearance to allow carriage of lorries piggy back style, ie more like the Eurotunnel shuttles, but on completely open flat wagons.

However,the GC was only built to whatever 'continental gauge' was when it was built, not necessarily the latest UIC gauge as now defined, and the proposals included an enhanced gauge route round SE and S London, and from Sheffield (ish) to the NW, so I think a good proportion of the route needed a lot of work anyway.

Paul
Logged
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 8929


View Profile
« Reply #104 on: January 25, 2009, 12:37:36 pm »

I must be mistaken..... Huh I am sure that there was a campaign to restore the GC» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line) line so double deck goods could be run.


I think that the 'Great Central' freight proposal was for gauge clearance to allow carriage of lorries piggy back style, ie more like the Eurotunnel shuttles, but on completely open flat wagons.

However,the GC was only built to whatever 'continental gauge' was when it was built, not necessarily the latest UIC gauge as now defined, and the proposals included an enhanced gauge route round SE and S London, and from Sheffield (ish) to the NW, so I think a good proportion of the route needed a lot of work anyway.

Paul

Yeah, I think Btline is getting confused. Further information on what was planned is here: http://www.crowsnest.co.uk/gauge.htm
Logged

To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page