Overcrowding

[whole diary]

[tom-langley]

Hi all,

I live in Langley and use the train line into and out of London on an frequent basis. Whenever I catch a train, its always seems to be full!

I have one major complaint, in that when I come back form London on late night services to Langley, everytime I catch them are full to bursting. What really gripes me is the fact that the trains they use to provide the service has plenty of capcity, but First Great Western seem unwilling to use it. I have caught a late night local stopping service from London several times, which is either 2 or 3 carrage train. But it always has an extra 2 or 3 carrage train towed allong with it, Which I can only assume that it is bein taken back to the depot, But these carrages are alwasy locked. So myself and many other people are forced to sqeeze onto a train heavily overcrowded, when there appeares to be regualr extra capacity available.

The last time I caught this train I missed by stop because the train was so full I was unable to get of the train before the driver shut the doors, so I had to get a taxi back to my house from the next staion. I have now given up uing the train and drive to as many places as possible, becuase FGW^▸ (First Great Western) is just too uncomfortable and unreliable.

Why is FGW so unable to oranise a decent train service?

[grahame]

Hi, Tom and welcome to the forum.

The "locked carriages" is a new one on me / haven't seen it in our neck of the woods.   Might it be possible that the evening train is actually two trains coupled toghether, with no through gangway ... so that they only open one section as they only have one customer facing conductor on board?

[martyjon]

Hi, Tom and welcome to the forum.

The "locked carriages" is a new one on me / haven't seen it in our neck of the woods.   Might it be possible that the evening train is actually two trains coupled toghether, with no through gangway ... so that they only open one section as they only have one customer facing conductor on board?

Do the Thames Valley services from Paddington to Langley, where the new member resides, have a conductor/guard. I thought the poster said he couldnt get off before the DRIVER closed the doors making the Turbos used in the Thames Valley Driver Only operation.

Note the big mirrors on the station platforms from Didcot into Paddington.

Yes Grahame it does happen in our neck of the woods, examples being when a scheduled service using a 150/158 is taking a pacer to Gloucester.

A case for the local Thames Valley MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) to get involved with, why are my constitutents forced to stand on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) trains because carriages are locked out of use.

[tom-langley]

Hi, Tom and welcome to the forum.

The "locked carriages" is a new one on me / haven't seen it in our neck of the woods.   Might it be possible that the evening train is actually two trains coupled toghether, with no through gangway ... so that they only open one section as they only have one customer facing conductor on board?

Yes this i the case, it i two trains coupled together. From what I understand, although the trains are driver operated, there has to be a conductor/gaurd onboard for safety reasons. This brings me to my other point, because the trains are so full you never see the gaurd becuase there is no way he could get through the carriages.

In addition to this I have never been asked for a ticket on the stretch between Langley and Paddignton and dont often have to show my ticket  when I get off a Paddington.

[whistleblower]

I understood that the Reading to Paddington services are DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) so there would not be a conductor on board - even for 'safety reasons'

As to the ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) (empty coaching stock) units, there are several valid reasons for this and it is a fairly frequent occurrence out West as well.  The diagram will state whether the rear unit is ECS and has to be locked out.  I imagine the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) has to pay less track usage charges to Network Rail for ECS.

As already mentioned, some units do not have through gangway connections.  These are the 180s (Adelantes), LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley) 165/166s and the 143 Pacers.  In the West (143s) we are still working to Wessex Trains rules which were that if a 143 was included there was no requirement for a traincrew member to be in the rear unit - unless you were travelling through the Severn Tunnel!  We (conductors) objected strongly as a fire, accident or security problem could arise anywhere and passengers in that unit are sealed in with no immediate assistance.  There are occasions when a conductor needs to be in the front unit for revenue duties or to operate the front door at short platforms.  We asked for two conductors to operate on trains in this configuration but Wessex rejected it.  The Rule Book does not have a ruling on this issue.  Commuters in the Bath/Bristol/Weston areas will often see the conductor of a pair of units which includes a 143 hopping in and out of the units at stops - to chase fare dodgers who will watch to see which unit he/she is in before boarding!

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (before the new franchise) did the opposite and agreed that two Adelantes coupled together should have a train manager each for safety reasons but we are still working to pre-Greater Western operating manuals.  With DOO trains the agreement allows for no conductor anyway but my guess is that with only one traincrew member (the driver) working two independently sealed units, the rear one is locked out for security reasons.  That would be taking too much of a risk and is probably an LTV agreement.

Other reasons for locking out would be a failed unit being returned to the depot (no electrics?), the unit being carried for only part of the journey (having to get passengers out again), too long for the platforms (six cars on the Weymouth route), or simply because it is easier for the conductor to manage a shorter train.  I will often agree with the driver that he should run the train as a two-car and we will simply ignore what is trailing behind.  If there are not many passengers I don't want to walk up and down four or more carriages to find them!

[Jim]

I don;t mind on quiet services when crew work front X only, but 1 thing I find on the First Trowbridge - Pompey on a Saturday, is that the ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) driver will not stop at 2 car stop (if only 2 are to be opened) but will go all the way to 4/6, causing the passengers (ME) a walk from the benches on the Breadford side of the Footbridge to 4 car stop, I regularery wait here, just to prove the point that you can loose time by not co-operting with other staff, or the guards not telling the driver what to do!

[tom-langley]

Sorry to keep on about this, and I dont have a problem with individual members of staff.

So if there is no requirment for the train to have a conductor onboard, why cant the train operating company use the extra carrages? myself and my girlfriend catch late night trains from Paddington on a regular basis, an both encounter this problem often.

From what the previous poster has said, it seems like the company is just out to make the most money possible, no matter what the cost to its passengers. Because this happens on a regular basis, I cant see how this is anything else other than poor managment and lazyness by FGW^▸ (First Great Western).The company has got a manopoly on services out paddington as there is no other way of getting home.

[martyjon]

Sorry to keep on about this, and I dont have a problem with individual members of staff.

So if there is no requirment for the train to have a conductor onboard, why cant the train operating company use the extra carrages? myself and my girlfriend catch late night trains from Paddington on a regular basis, an both encounter this problem often.

From what the previous poster has said, it seems like the company is just out to make the most money possible, no matter what the cost to its passengers. Because this happens on a regular basis, I cant see how this is anything else other than poor managment and lazyness by FGW^▸ (First Great Western).The company has got a manopoly on services out paddington as there is no other way of getting home.

Tom - Langley

Drop a letter to your MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) and get him or her to take up the question of why you are forced to stand on late night trains out of Paddington when empty carriages are just being towed along by the train when they could be used by the fare paying passengers.

[tom-langley]

Got this reply from FGW^▸ (First Great Western) today.

Thank you for your email of 11 July 2007 regarding your journeys from
Langley to London Paddington and return. I am sorry that you have
experienced crowded journeys. I can assure you that we have no wish for
passengers to suffer discomfort when they travel with us.

We aim to ensure that you should not stand on off peak services and you
should not normally stand for more than 20 minutes. This is not always
possible and I am sorry that your journey was not what you expected. We do
have plans to increase seating capacity using more rolling stock and
improved timetabling. This will alleviate the worst of the problem but
there may be times when trains do run full and standing.

Whilst we do not wish any service to become uncomfortable, passengers will
be allowed to board until such time as we consider that safety may be
breached. This is not a set figure determined by the number of passengers,
as there is no legal limit to the number of people that can be carried, but
is judged by the Train Manager and Driver as to when they feel that the
train's systems could be affected. The Health and Safety Inspectorate do
not currently consider this to be a safety issue, but if this changes and
they impose set limits for the number of passengers per service, we will of
course comply immediately.

Thank you again for contacting First Great Western with your views. We are
always interested in customers' comments, from which we can identify areas
in which we need to change and improve our service.

Yours sincerely

Holli Rafferty
Customer Services Advisor

[Jim]

Standard Reply for Overcrowding, I got nearly the same last 2 paragraphs when I complained about a journey

[Visoflex]

Coming home from Paddington on Tuesday 24 July, I missed the 2000 Oxford (truncated at Didcot for line closure reasons) by the skin of my teeth, and had to wait for the 2015 to Reading.

It finally arrived (late) and was a 2 coach 165 unit.  It was packed to heaving - the same as the morning peak.  I couldn't get on it, and had to wait for the 2030.

It would be interesting to know how FGW^▸ (First Great Western) plan to alleviate overcrowding on the Thames Valley suburban services, as according to a previous letter I had from them, there were no plans to acquire any additional rolling stock.

[Tim]

I can see the logic of locking units out of use when the trains is lightly used but when the only accessible carriages are overcrowded I can't see it making economic sense for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to do this.  If you unlock all the units you get happier customers and fewer fare dodgers (because the conductor has space to check the tickets.)  Surely this increase in revenue would pay for the extra guard who might be required.