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Author Topic: line speeds  (Read 14643 times)
6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01
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« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2009, 22:27:15 »

just out of interest... why is the passing loop at axminster so long? i know its so trains can pass at speed...but why? they have to stop at axminster anyway?
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G.Uard
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« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2009, 07:32:19 »

Very interesting, thanks.

I, too, like to know speed limits on routes I travel on.

Do SWT (South West Trains) reach 100 mph much around London? Those Waterloo lines are quite congested are they not?

In the lead up to electrification of the SW Main Line back in the mid 60s, the Bullied Pacifics, particularly the Merchant Navys regularly achieved 100mph plus between west of London and Southampton.  The high HP electric REP/TC(resolve) combos were timed at 100mph as were the Wessex Express trains which superseded them.  Things are less breathtaking on the West of England line after leaving Basingstoke, but the 159s, (a modification of the 158 with a slightly different braking system, which means that these units will not run in multiple with other 'sprinter' types), easily cope with the 90mph max line speeds.

they can run in multiple with other sprinters,i remember a case last year when an fgw 158 en route back from ports had problems so fgw hired a 159 to couple up and box the defective cab in to get back to bristol.also in wessex days a 159 coupled to a stranded 153 at warminster to get it in to the bay at salisbury to get looked at by fitters.

Yes, I should have written this better.  The original 22 class 159/0 sets were fitted with 4 step braking.  Apparently, this was to make them incompatible with other 'sprinters' and thus avoid them being purloined by other franchises later in life.  On delivery, they were not able to work in multiple with other classes.  I can only surmise that operational headaches and the arrival of surplus 158s from the frozen north, (reconfigured as 159/1s), have resulted in a modification allowing multiple working with other classes. 
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broadgage
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« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2009, 08:34:07 »

Regarding line speeds in general, I wonder if the service on FGW (First Great Western) (and elswhere) could be improved by a slight general increase in line speeds, I believe that in many cases speeds could be slightly increased without expensive infrastructure works, and without reducing safety standards.

It must be remembered that a speed limit of say 60, may have been imposed decades ago when many drivers took speed restrictions with a "pinch of salt". In years gone by a great many services routinely exceeded speed limits by 5 or 10 MPH without accident.
These days speed limits are strictly enforced, with drivers at risk of dismissal for all but the most trivial breaches.
A strictly enforced limit of say 65 MPH should be no less safe than a limit of 60, over which trains in practice did at least 65 and sometimes 70.

If the timings were kept as at present, but permitted speeds slightly increased, then a much more reliable service could offred, by turning late departures into on time arrivals.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2009, 11:34:45 »

Very interesting, thanks.

I, too, like to know speed limits on routes I travel on.

Do SWT (South West Trains) reach 100 mph much around London? Those Waterloo lines are quite congested are they not?

In the lead up to electrification of the SW Main Line back in the mid 60s, the Bullied Pacifics, particularly the Merchant Navys regularly achieved 100mph plus between west of London and Southampton.  The high HP electric REP/TC(resolve) combos were timed at 100mph as were the Wessex Express trains which superseded them.  Things are less breathtaking on the West of England line after leaving Basingstoke, but the 159s, (a modification of the 158 with a slightly different braking system, which means that these units will not run in multiple with other 'sprinter' types), easily cope with the 90mph max line speeds.

they can run in multiple with other sprinters,i remember a case last year when an fgw 158 en route back from ports had problems so fgw hired a 159 to couple up and box the defective cab in to get back to bristol.also in wessex days a 159 coupled to a stranded 153 at warminster to get it in to the bay at salisbury to get looked at by fitters.

Yes, I should have written this better.  The original 22 class 159/0 sets were fitted with 4 step braking.  Apparently, this was to make them incompatible with other 'sprinters' and thus avoid them being purloined by other franchises later in life.  On delivery, they were not able to work in multiple with other classes.  I can only surmise that operational headaches and the arrival of surplus 158s from the frozen north, (reconfigured as 159/1s), have resulted in a modification allowing multiple working with other classes. 

the 4th step is the same as on a class 170 it gives an extra 1bar pressure in emergency,this does not stop them from running in multiple as emergency is not a step used in normal running,dont quote me on it but i believe the 159/0 still have this and it does not cause any problems when coupled as it uses a seperate train wire that other sprinters do not have.
all that happens when an emergency application occurs is 1 set will have higher brake pressures while the other is normal step3.
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Zoe
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« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2009, 13:06:01 »

Yes, I should have written this better.  The original 22 class 159/0 sets were fitted with 4 step braking.  Apparently, this was to make them incompatible with other 'sprinters' and thus avoid them being purloined by other franchises later in life.  On delivery, they were not able to work in multiple with other classes.
I doubt it had anything to do with franchises, this was back in the days of BR (British Rail(ways)).  The 159s were a result of Regional Railways ordering more 158s than they needed at the same time as Network SouthEast were looking and so that part of the order was taken by Network SouthEast and they were then converted to 159s.  It's quite possible though they they were made incompatible with other sprinter units to prevent their use by other BR sectors though.
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« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2009, 16:46:33 »

When the 159's were undergoing initial reconfiguration c1992, the plans for privatisation were well on the table. Network South East was I believe, something of a dummy run in many ways.  I can only quote depot here say, but I am led to believe that NSE (Network South East) foresaw the possibility of future stock moves/grabs and instigated this mod in order to keep the 159s in the sunny south.  There is a pretty solid body of opinion that insists the 159s could not run in multiple with anything else, at least in the early days, but I don't have the technical knowledge to argue the point one way or another.  It would be interesting if an expert could 'rule' on this. Perhaps smithy could come back with more info??
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Tim
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« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2009, 16:59:25 »

Regarding line speeds in general, I wonder if the service on FGW (First Great Western) (and elswhere) could be improved by a slight general increase in line speeds, I believe that in many cases speeds could be slightly increased without expensive infrastructure works, and without reducing safety standards.


To my mind this would be money better spent than building a new high speed line.  If you could shave minutes off here and there all round the country and the whole country would benefit not just the folk who travel to the handful of stations served by HS2 (The next High Speed line(s))

It woud be a question of replacing a foot crossing with a bridge here or recanting a curve there.  It needn't be expensive if done at the same time as other renewals work. 
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« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2009, 17:42:13 »

I agree. Parts of the WCML (West Coast Main Line), GWML (Great Western Main Line) and ECML (East Coast Main Line) are 140 - 155 mph ready.
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« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2009, 17:51:57 »

Which parts of the WCML (West Coast Main Line) are worthy of 155? By the time top speed is reached, braking for a curve would be required.
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« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2009, 18:20:01 »

I agree. Parts of the WCML (West Coast Main Line), GWML (Great Western Main Line) and ECML (East Coast Main Line) are 140 - 155 mph ready.
The only route apart from CTRL (Channel Tunnel Rail Link) that is cleared for regular speeds in excess of 125 are stretches of the ECML where there is a max of 140 easy to spot these areas as they have a flashing green aspect, however the time table is geared for 125.  There are parts of the GWML capable of over 125 but it is not maintained to a standard above 125

There are problems for staff on the track with speeds over 125 it is difficult to get the safe sighting distance even at 125.
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« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2009, 18:28:45 »

When the 159's were undergoing initial reconfiguration c1992, the plans for privatisation were well on the table. Network South East was I believe, something of a dummy run in many ways.  I can only quote depot here say, but I am led to believe that NSE (Network South East) foresaw the possibility of future stock moves/grabs and instigated this mod in order to keep the 159s in the sunny south.  There is a pretty solid body of opinion that insists the 159s could not run in multiple with anything else, at least in the early days, but I don't have the technical knowledge to argue the point one way or another.  It would be interesting if an expert could 'rule' on this. Perhaps smithy could come back with more info??

the 159's started life as ordinary 158's with bsi couplings but were converted to 159's by a company in scotland,they did have 4 step braking in the early days i think as part of a trial initially and it was later put to standard 3 step.
i believe there was nothing to stop them being ran in multiple despite the 4 step although network south east preffered them not to be used with other 3 step braked units,not sure why this was the case though.
the only major difference between 159's and similar 3 car 158's like the ex-tpe stuff is the toilet retention tanks and SWT (South West Trains) have got modified driver switch and door control panels fitted now.
these days 159's can be coupled to other dmu's with compatible bsi couplings for example the 2 and 3 car 158's aquired from TPE (Trans Pennine Express).
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« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2009, 18:33:20 »

Well, BR (British Rail(ways)) obviously thought 155 mph would be worth it.

The InterCity 250 project would have introduced non tilt 155 mph trains. With tilting, probably even more of the line.

Yes, in cab signalling is required.
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devon_metro
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« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2009, 18:39:41 »

I agree. Parts of the WCML (West Coast Main Line), GWML (Great Western Main Line) and ECML (East Coast Main Line) are 140 - 155 mph ready.
The only route apart from CTRL (Channel Tunnel Rail Link) that is cleared for regular speeds in excess of 125 are stretches of the ECML where there is a max of 140 easy to spot these areas as they have a flashing green aspect, however the time table is geared for 125.  There are parts of the GWML capable of over 125 but it is not maintained to a standard above 125

There are problems for staff on the track with speeds over 125 it is difficult to get the safe sighting distance even at 125.

No parts of the ECML operate at 140mph. That trial was dropped many many years ago!
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thetrout
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« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2009, 21:21:33 »

I personally find the speed travelling on a HST (High Speed Train) between Reading & London most satisfactory Grin

Whack a few good tunes on my MP3 Player and obtain a tea from the buffet car = A relaxing and speedy journey Cool
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Grin Grin Grin Grin
John R
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« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2009, 21:36:19 »

I agree. Parts of the WCML (West Coast Main Line), GWML (Great Western Main Line) and ECML (East Coast Main Line) are 140 - 155 mph ready.
The only route apart from CTRL (Channel Tunnel Rail Link) that is cleared for regular speeds in excess of 125 are stretches of the ECML where there is a max of 140 easy to spot these areas as they have a flashing green aspect, however the time table is geared for 125.  There are parts of the GWML capable of over 125 but it is not maintained to a standard above 125

There are problems for staff on the track with speeds over 125 it is difficult to get the safe sighting distance even at 125.

Not so much a trial as a facility to permit overspeed testing safely without needing to close the ECML to do so. Can you imagine such an innovative solution to a problem in today's privatised railway?


No parts of the ECML operate at 140mph. That trial was dropped many many years ago!
« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 21:36:36 by John R » Logged
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