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Author Topic: Reading Green Park  (Read 123030 times)
bradbrka
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« Reply #180 on: October 12, 2021, 08:53:51 am »

Quote
Works Descriptions
Description
Balfour Beatty Road Closure AG

Location
200 mtrs either side of Railway bridge and on bridge deck RG2 6AT

Carriageway and construction of new footway

One.network suggests the closure is 25 Oct 2021 - 11 Feb 2022 from Wokingham BC with road closure and diversion. Despite having a No Entry symbol “No delays are likely” from West Berkshire Council. Nice to know that our local councils are fulfilling their duty of cooperation!

Thanks bradbrka, would be grateful for source and any more detail

Sid

I found the advance notice signs as I walked past at the weekend so did some digging (not the holes on the bridge).

It's from the same source. The two councils have each added entries in slightly different places, the West Berks entry is on the bridge (the one with more detail behind it), the Wokingham one is on the approach at the point the road will be closed on the east side.

Probably a result of the road being on both sides of the council boundaries.

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stuving
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« Reply #181 on: October 12, 2021, 09:30:34 am »

It's from the same source. The two councils have each added entries in slightly different places, the West Berks entry is on the bridge (the one with more detail behind it), the Wokingham one is on the approach at the point the road will be closed on the east side.

Probably a result of the road being on both sides of the council boundaries.

If you look closely, the West Berks data entry is for the closure of the bridge only, and the Wokingham one is just for part of the diversion around that. Their description of the route even says that once you have gone along Pingewood Road South for 0.1 km "destination is on the left". That "destination" must be the borough boundary, and West Berks have not posted the rest of the route on their side.

There are a number of odd things about that. One of them is why Wokingham think that it's not allowed for them to advise a diversion through another LTA (Local Transport Authority) area. Why not? They should at least notify them, and if need be collaborate on the routing, but the route makes sense as a whole or not at all. Of course it's even odder for West Berks to promulgate a road closure with no diversion at all. Yes it will be obvious to the locals, who are most of the users of that road, but still.

Before that there is the the well-known fact that the northern side of that bridge is in Wokingham Borough. Now it is only one side, and if you go too far east or west you find yourself in West Berks or Reading. But you'd have thought the rules, followed as a matter of routine, would require both WBCs to do the formalities. Looking through the local paper back to 16th September, I can't find a published TRO» (Trowbridge - next trains) notice from Wokingham BC.
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CyclingSid
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« Reply #182 on: October 12, 2021, 05:55:36 pm »

Looking at the mapping data, the boundary mapped at 1:10,000 runs along the north side of the road. So the recent holes in the bridge are in Wokingham, but probably done by Network Rail?

The road has been a mess for a long time. The traffic lights don't work sensibly, warned by a yellow sign saying cyclists might be met in the middle of the road. The next road bridge south has proper sensors cctv/microwave and works very well.
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stuving
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« Reply #183 on: October 12, 2021, 06:23:01 pm »

Looking at the mapping data, the boundary mapped at 1:10,000 runs along the north side of the road. So the recent holes in the bridge are in Wokingham, but probably done by Network Rail?

Moved, has it? The parish boundary on which the West Berks/Wokingham boundary is based ran along the centre of the roadway, from 160 m east of the railway centreline to 100 m to the west. The modern boundary does the same, and for the eastern 100 m of that length there is another parish boundary, now the one between Wokingham and Reading, along the same road and defined as the traditional four feet from the (northern) hedge at the roots. Now the little bit of Wokingham (then of Shinfield parish) might be a true exclave, with a single boundary between West Berks and Reading along the road to its east. But that's not what the old maps show - there is a narrow strip of the Borough/parish connecting it to the main part, between the road's centreline and the "4 ft. RH" line to its north.
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CyclingSid
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« Reply #184 on: October 13, 2021, 11:53:21 am »

Not the best of maps, I am sure they could have the boundary line slightly thinner.

https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/election-maps/gb/?x=469596&y=170091&z=13&bnd1=UTA&bnd2=&labels=off

As in the Boundary Line data I was looking at, it appears to run along the north side of the road.
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stuving
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« Reply #185 on: October 13, 2021, 12:57:34 pm »

Not the best of maps, I am sure they could have the boundary line slightly thinner.

https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/election-maps/gb/?x=469596&y=170091&z=13&bnd1=UTA&bnd2=&labels=off

As in the Boundary Line data I was looking at, it appears to run along the north side of the road.

I guess it's fit for the purpose of defining boundaries. After all, the population (voting or other) of roadways is small - one of the reasons for drawing boundaries along them. But most old boundaries are still exactly where they were when they only crossed fields, and do now bisect houses and other buildings. The Reading/Wokingham boundary through the Whitknights campus and the housing to the south is a case in point. Why are they never tidied up just a little bit?
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eightonedee
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« Reply #186 on: October 13, 2021, 02:39:34 pm »

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Why are they never tidied up just a little bit?

They are Stuving, but normally in a haphazard way, generally when there's an urban area spreading into an adjoining (different) county - for example Caversham became part of Reading Borough in (I think) the 1920s, and further bits have transferred since, such as Caversham Park Village, all transferred out of Oxfordshire. This is why you encounter a "Mapledurham" sign on the Woodcote Road before you leave Reading Borough. Someone at the Boundary Commission also decided more recently (1980s or 1990s I think) that Berkshire's boundary with Oxfordshire along the Thames should move to the middle of the river (except for some inexplicable reason a bit here in Streatley), and lucky Berkshire (our strictly I guess Slough Borough) was awarded all the land covered by Junction 4B of the M4 which used to be shared with neighbouring authorities.

It must be a great job at the Boundary Commission, spending your life looking at large scale OS (Ordnance Survey) maps pondering what minor local government boundary change you might recommend next!
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stuving
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« Reply #187 on: October 13, 2021, 02:57:58 pm »

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Why are they never tidied up just a little bit?

They are Stuving, but normally in a haphazard way, generally when there's an urban area spreading into an adjoining (different) county - for example Caversham became part of Reading Borough in (I think) the 1920s, and further bits have transferred since, such as Caversham Park Village, all transferred out of Oxfordshire.
Ah, but I meant "a little bit" to be taken literally. Even its biggest detractors would not say that about Caversham. And where a significant amount a population is transferred, isn't it often done by the wardful? That leaves the boundary following a line drawn centuries ago for other purposes.

I suspect this really about the difficulty Emglish lawyers have always had in defining land boundaries in absolute terms. They always refer to something already there, even if it is something easy to dig up or demolish. An existing boundary offers the same illusory safety, combined with being able to say "it may be wrong, but it wasn't my mistake". So while it looks sensible to move an administrative boundary to between houses or along new property boundaries or features, no-one is volunteering to do it.
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4064ReadingAbbey
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« Reply #188 on: October 13, 2021, 03:20:09 pm »

I know this example is regularly trotted out for comparison, but in my defence I have to say that I first came across it in reality when I lived in Belgium and my wife and I went out for a drive one Sunday.

Search a large scale map for Baarle-Nassau or Baarle-Hertzog on the Belgium-Dutch border just north of Turnhout in Belgium, for example <https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Baarle-Nassau,+Netherlands/@51.4367821,4.8532009,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x47c6a5342570ab1d:0x808696d1e9939744!8m2!3d51.4451366!4d4.9295231>

There the exclaves have exclaves...!
« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 09:41:03 am by 4064ReadingAbbey » Logged
eightonedee
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« Reply #189 on: October 13, 2021, 10:34:39 pm »

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I suspect this really about the difficulty Emglish lawyers have always had in defining land boundaries in absolute terms. They always refer to something already there, even if it is something easy to dig up or demolish. An existing boundary offers the same illusory safety, combined with being able to say "it may be wrong, but it wasn't my mistake". So while it looks sensible to move an administrative boundary to between houses or along new property boundaries or features, no-one is volunteering to do it.

Speaking as an English lawyer (and a property lawyer to boot), this is nothing to do with this. The problem we have with boundaries is a combination of the poor quality of old deed plans, the fact that title boundaries are now normally defined by reference to OS (Ordnance Survey) data at 1/1250 or 1/2500 (the thickness of line alone being 0.5m in the real world) where some of the underlying surevy data has been carried across many editions of the OS without detailed survey, recognised by what is known as the General Boundaries Rule, and the darker side of human nature, with a small proportion of humanity that either maliciously moves boundaries or suspects their neighbours wrongly of doing so.

The real problem is that features that are often used to mark boundaries like river and stream courses tend to move over time, and then thoughtless people do things like building roads and railways over them, resulting in the obliteration or diversion of the feature that used to be a clear parish boundary - which I expect is exactly what has happened at Kirton's Farm Road/Smallmead Bridge/the site of Green Park Station.
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CyclingSid
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« Reply #190 on: October 14, 2021, 07:04:55 am »

As I am sure eightonedee can tell us there is a vast amount of publications and case law on property boundaries. There is precious little on administrative boundaries, the last I can remember is by Booth (Public  Boundaries  and  Ordnance  Survey  1840-1980) which is forty years old.

David Andrews' article in Sheetlines https://www.charlesclosesociety.org/files/Issue103page31.pdf suggests that there might not have been anything more recent from Ordnance Survey than An Illustrated Guide to Boundary Making, Ordnance Survey, 1986 (not seen).
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Reading General
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« Reply #191 on: October 14, 2021, 08:47:04 am »

Quote
Why are they never tidied up just a little bit?

They are Stuving, but normally in a haphazard way, generally when there's an urban area spreading into an adjoining (different) county - for example Caversham became part of Reading Borough in (I think) the 1920s, and further bits have transferred since, such as Caversham Park Village, all transferred out of Oxfordshire. This is why you encounter a "Mapledurham" sign on the Woodcote Road before you leave Reading Borough.
1974 was the last time the boundary was moved up in Caversham Heights I think, from where that sign is to the current one on Upper Woodcote Road. You may also notice that street lamps are not on the upper stretch either.
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eightonedee
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« Reply #192 on: October 17, 2021, 02:30:17 pm »

Meanwhile, back at the place where three unitary authority boundaries meet, this is what it looked like this morning-
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stuving
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« Reply #193 on: October 22, 2021, 11:45:59 pm »

Went down to Reading Green Park station yesterday.

The Up platform has the yellow line completed. It also looks as though the steel work is complete on the stairs/lift structure on the Up platform, together with the stairs. The bridge link is in place, so they presumably had a possession at some stage. The Down platform stairs were horizontal waiting to be installed.

There was a longish media release on progress from RBC(resolve) back in August, covering the craning of the bits of bridge, plus this aerial picture:

This also has a date - June 2022 - which somehow sounds unambitious and likely to be missed at the same time. There is also now a project page with some documents on it, though nothing so useful as a link to the update.
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CyclingSid
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« Reply #194 on: November 07, 2021, 03:39:43 pm »

Have just been down to Reading Green Park. Possibly the last chance to take a view of the station for 16 weeks, while a footpath is built up the road and over the bridge (better not to kill your passengers before they get to the station?).

Difficult to see much change from the bridge, but get the impression that they have installed some roofing panels on the station roof. Also appears to be some new tyre tracks from the station car park/dropping off point to the side of the road embankment. Presumably in preparation for the road works.
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