Trains without retention tanks spray human effluent over railway trackside workers

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

A video news item from the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Sewage dumped on tracks by trains is a 'health risk'

Train companies have been accused of putting passengers' health at risk by dumping toilet waste on the tracks at some of London's mainline stations.

Modern trains are fitted with toilet tanks, which are pumped out at the depot when they become full, but older rolling stock does not have such a facility.

Unions say it is a health risk and companies should fit older trains with the tanks. The firms say the number of trains where this happens is decreasing.

BBC London's Transport Correspondent Tom Edwards spoke to Bob Crow, from the Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers' Union, and Seb Gordon, from the Rail Delivery Group.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-26453915

This is, according to Bob Crow, not a Victorian practice, but a prehistoric one. Those pesky cavemen. Building trains without retention tanks. 

[a-driver]

Turbos actually have a gauge fitted below the toilet on the outside of the carriage to indicate how full the toilet waste tank is. One light means 50% full, two lights mean 80% full. Although it is so low down and covered in dust/dirt seeing it in practice is difficult! With the fitment of a universal toilet as part of the Turbo refurbishment, I expect we'll see a similar feature introduced where the door locks itself.

Blue lights if anyone does want to try and spot one of them lit beneath the grime!  Personally I can't wait for the new toilets to be fitted as the current ones fitted during the refresh continue to not be fit for purpose - running out of water or blocking far to quickly and easily.

The only reason the toilets block far too easily is because passengers flush all manners if things down them!

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the Swindon Advertiser:

Train boss on flush menace: 'You learn to close your mouth'

Network Rail’s boss has experienced the horror of the train flush menace first-hand.

Mark Carne, chief executive of the Swindon-based organisation, told the Guardian: “You quickly learn to turn your back and close your mouth when you’re trackside and a train is passing. As I know first-hand.”

His comments came as rail firms prepare for a ban on trains flushing their toilets directly onto the tracks.

By the end of the decade, all rail franchise holders must operate trains with retention tanks. Rather than emptying their pans onto the tracks, as often happens now, trains will have to hold onto this waste water until it can be emptied at rail depots.

Network Rail’s Mark Carne spoke to the Guardian at Swindon station. “It’s disgusting,” he said of the evidence of a recently flushed toilet trip visible on the tracks. “I’ve been out there with the track workers and you see it coming, like a plume of steam. It’s totally unacceptable and I’m pleased we’ve got government agreement.”

A Network Rail spokesperson added that the improvements were possible following track improvement work: “As part of our Railway Upgrade Plan we have improved infrastructure across the route which allows new trains to run which do not dispose of waste onto the track like some of the older fleet,” he said. “Further planned route modernisation means fewer and fewer trains which dispose of waste onto the track will run on the railway.”

The RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) union has campaigned for an end to the practice of flushing toilets directly onto the tracks – which it says leaves its members “sprayed with human sewage”.

A spokesman said: “We want to see a firm schedule that forces the train operating companies to stop this foul and disgusting practice, which leaves our members out on the railways regularly sprayed with human sewage. We’re not interested in half-hearted pledges. We want cast-iron guarantees.”

Great Western Railway said that their new high-speed trains boast toilets with retention tanks. The new trains will start replacing the old Intercity fleet on the London to Bristol line from the end of this year.

[ChrisB]

What part of the Route Modernisation allows retention tanks to be fitted?

Hmmm. Isn't it actually an EU^» (European Union - about) requirement & zilch to do with NR^» (Network Rail - home page)?

[Bmblbzzz]

This topic reminds me of an incident from India about eight years ago. A woman gave birth in a train toilet – and the baby fell through the toilet, which like some train loos you can still see in parts of Europe was just a hole in the floor, on to the track. Amazingly and luckily, the baby, a girl, survived and was found and reunited with the mother. Many people took this as a sign that the baby was blessed with good luck by the gods, and her parents were inundated with others of future marriage for their daughter. Sounds unlikely, but genuinely happened.

[Alan Pettitt]

My Confession:

Sometime about 50 years ago I happened to be on a train with a schoolmate, which, unusually had toilets on it, and, having seen the hole in the floor type pan that it was, we put one end of the toilet roll down the pan just as we were arriving at Selhurst, to see what would happen, we were delighted to find that, once the train moved on, the track had a continuous strip of toilet paper from one end of the platform to the other.
I have matured a little since then.

[PhilWakely]

My Confession:

Sometime about 50 years ago I happened to be on a train with a schoolmate, which, unusually had toilets on it, and, having seen the hole in the floor type pan that it was, we put one end of the toilet roll down the pan just as we were arriving at Selhurst, to see what would happen, we were delighted to find that, once the train moved on, the track had a continuous strip of toilet paper from one end of the platform to the other.
I have matured a little since then.

Just 5 short years ago, whilst undertaking a Trans-Mongolia trip from St Petersburg to Beijing, I was similarly curious. I was in the last coach, which had a large picture window in the locked corridor door next to the very basic toilet facility. So, somewhere in northern Mongolia could be seen a long white paper trail leading away from the train.  Thankfully, the border guards had departed the train by this stage 

[Bmblbzzz]

There is one rail journey in southeast Poland, from Przemyśl to Ustrzyki Dolny, that makes a large loop through what is now Ukrainian territory. I'm not sure what the procedure is now but back in the 1980s, when Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union, it was treated as a local journey because both ends were in Poland so no passports etc were required. Soviet border guards would board the train, which then drove without stopping between those two stations. Except on one occasion when some Solidarity activists dropped pamphlets through the toilet-hole onto the track, obviously hoping they would be blown into nearby villages and spread knowledge of and support for the movement on the other side of the border. It didn't quite work out like that. The guards made the driver stop the train and it stood there, doors and windows locked, obviously, till all the leaflets had been picked up.

[grahame]

Spoiler for disgusting content - apologies!

I watched this episode last night and was surprised/disgusted that apparently the trains dont have a holding tank for human waste (is it just HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train)?) so if you use the facilities in the station it just empties on to the track.  Is this correct?  But why is there no smell?  The waste is cleaned up only every 3 months in the station, but what happens on the tracks outside - it must be left to decompose naturally?

Apologies again, but hard to belive my understanding is correct!

Older train such as the HST still discharge directly on the track - that's why there's a sign in the loo saying "do not flush while the train is standing in the station".   Newer trains have holding tanks, and I believe tanks are being retro-fitted to the HSTs that are being fitted with "plug doors" for a further lease of life.

[Thatcham Crossing]

It's also why the area between/around the tracks is known as "the cess" (short for cesspit!).

[chrisr_75]

Spoiler for disgusting content - apologies!

I watched this episode last night and was surprised/disgusted that apparently the trains dont have a holding tank for human waste (is it just HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train)?) so if you use the facilities in the station it just empties on to the track.  Is this correct?  But why is there no smell?  The waste is cleaned up only every 3 months in the station, but what happens on the tracks outside - it must be left to decompose naturally?

Apologies again, but hard to belive my understanding is correct!

All correct. But new trains are now fitted with retention tanks. Anything that roughly pre-dates privatisation will likely just discharge onto the tracks.

Believe me, it is not particularly pleasant working near this and it is a rare issue I wholeheartedly agree with the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) over!

Bangers and mash according to the Railtrack lady  

Another thing that struck me, which I raised earlier in the thread, was that everything dressed in orange seemed to move around at a sloooow shuffle, no urgency on display. They really could do with upping the enthusiasm levels a little, at least for the cameras...

I was also shocked that those longitudinal timbers were allowed to get into such poor condition - it's really not difficult to inspect them.

[chrisr_75]

It's also why the area between/around the tracks is known as "the cess" (short for cesspit!).

The cess is the lowered area either side of the trackbed, normally used as a refuge for track workers. I don't think the name is short for cesspit. I've never seen any "bangers and mash" in a cess.

[didcotdean]

I've seen it claimed that the platform 1 area was particularly dirty from people using the facilities on a stationary train rather than pay 30p in the station. There was certainly one travel guidebook that suggested this practice to its readers.

[JayMac]

Another excellent reason why the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) had to be replaced.

Fine to fit retention toilets to a few sets, but not cost effective to do whole fleet.

[Electric train]

Spoiler for disgusting content - apologies!

I watched this episode last night and was surprised/disgusted that apparently the trains dont have a holding tank for human waste (is it just HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train)?) so if you use the facilities in the station it just empties on to the track.  Is this correct?  But why is there no smell?  The waste is cleaned up only every 3 months in the station, but what happens on the tracks outside - it must be left to decompose naturally?

Apologies again, but hard to belive my understanding is correct!

All correct. But new trains are now fitted with retention tanks. Anything that roughly pre-dates privatisation will likely just discharge onto the tracks.

Believe me, it is not particularly pleasant working near this and it is a rare issue I wholeheartedly agree with the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) over!

Bangers and mash according to the Railtrack lady  

Another thing that struck me, which I raised earlier in the thread, was that everything dressed in orange seemed to move around at a sloooow shuffle, no urgency on display. They really could do with upping the enthusiasm levels a little, at least for the cameras...

I was also shocked that those longitudinal timbers were allowed to get into such poor condition - it's really not difficult to inspect them.

165/6 onwards have retention toilets.

Paddington station used to have a team of guys called "the well gang" their job was to hose down the platform wells once a week, they just started at one side at the start of the week and did a pair of platform wells a day.  When not doing that they were part of the Pway gang