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News: the Great Western Coffee Shop ... keeping you up to date with travel around the South West
 
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Author Topic: South Hampshire Rail Users (SHRUG)  (Read 52542 times)
devon_metro
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« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2009, 17:31:15 »

Looks like a SWT (South West Trains) hate webpage!

Ever heard of a balanced view?
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The Grecian
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« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2009, 18:05:31 »

It's certainly interesting the way this thread has developed. Personally I've always found SWT (South West Trains) on the two routes I've used most (Axminster-Exeter and Dorchester-Southampton) to run a reliable, comfortable service. The December 2004 timetable change slowed a lot of trains down, but at least they're more likely to turn up on time. Having said that I've always tended to travel off-peak for leisure so I can cope with delays. It may be different in the peak.

The most shambolic I've ever known a train operator was FGW (First Great Western) around the Bristol area in autumn 2007, especially on Sundays (mainly no staff so trains getting cancelled and the following ones getting Tube-like as a result). Fortunately things have got an awful lot better since then.
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moonrakerz
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« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2009, 18:10:24 »

Are all the letters of complaint we collect individually vitriolic, or only collectively?
Your website appears to be very selective in the use of its "quotes" and seems much happier to "make a mountain out of a molehill" at every opportunity

On the point about Southampton footbridge, the question is whether it's right to make elderly people take an unnecessary detour, whether one mile or half a mile. It can be socially exclusive where the elderly people are frail or disabled, and disability takes huge numbers of forms. If an elderly person states that a distance is longer than it actually is, it may well mean that the detour has been difficult for them.
Don't let the true facts get in the way of a good whinge. If people are "socially excluded" (must be a Guardian reader !), frail and disabled they probably couldn't use the footbridge anyway !

Barry Doe is probably Britain's greatest fares expert. But he is hopelessly biased.
Your website is hardly a good example of lack of bias.

It's always easier to attack other people's efforts to stand up for their fellow passengers than to stick one's head above the parapet and whistle-blow on lousy standards.
Enjoy your coffee, and all your trips to the PO, superstore etc when you find them closed during opening hours.

Complacency doesn't breed good services. 
Sorry Denis, but neither does your vitriolic manner, which is actually starting to show itself in your responses to members of this forum who dare to question some of your reporting methods. Just questioning some of the content of your website hardly constitutes an "attack" - does it ? From that, I presume ANY response from SWT (South West Trains) or its employees that doesn't fit with your views is also an "attack" on the "fellow passengers" !  

As The Grecian has just pointed out, if you wanted to see/experience a REALLY bad rail service you should have tried FGW (First Great Western)'s running of the Portsmouth/Cardiff route and it side shoots for the first 18 months or so of its franchise !!
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Denis
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« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2009, 20:01:27 »

I cannot get involved in a detailed argument at the present time as I am about to start a national rail tour to see what is going on around the country.

We are a well-recognised group that was established 16 years ago to campaign for better services and treatment of passengers in South Hampshire. We have had very positive relations with MPs (Member of Parliament), the rail industry (apart from Stagecoach), various other organisations, and members of the public, particularly regular SWT (South West Trains) commuters. We have had correspondence published in the local press, RAIL, the Times etc, and memoranda published in both the Transport Committee^s reports on franchising. We have been on TV and contributed to a number of radio programmes.

The response to our efforts has been overwhelmingly positive, particularly our commitment and the fact that we undertake wide-scale research rather than relying on off-the-cuff personal comments. Despite our attempts to improve things for local rail users, it appears that some anonymous members of your group decided to attack us behind our back, without any indication that you intended to invite us to respond. A concerned third party told us what was happening. By way of contrast, people like Barry Doe and SWT are well aware of our website and can respond if they choose. We would certainly publish their comments, whilst reserving the right to add our response. A very hostile letter from Stewart Palmer is copied in our latest newsletter.

Honing in on a single word like ^vitriolic^ hardly takes the argument forward. We are passionate about good customer service.  Can anyone deny that the kind of customer service recorded at the start of our latest newsletter is appalling? I would take a lot of convincing that people are not hugely irritated when booking offices, POs, shops etc are closed during opening hours except in emergencies. Our survey at Totton booking office was very useful to another organisation that had just been invited by the transport minister to submit evidence of non-compliance. Obviously he is not complacent.

I expect most of you will have heard Tony Ambrose, who has been equally forthright about the problems on FGW (First Great Western), for example at the 2007 and 2008 RMT (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) seminars in the House of Commons. We applauded his efforts on behalf of FGW passengers on our website. We did not denigrate him as vitriolic, but we did condemn Tom Harris for his scathing put-down of Tony last year.

I^m not clear what is wrong with the Guardian. It is an award-winning quality newspaper. Using the term ^Guardian reader^ in a pejorative sense is no substitute for sound argument based on research. I actually worked on disability and carer issues for 12 years. Many older people can do all sorts of things provided they can go at their own pace. It is perfectly possible for someone who can cross a footbridge at slow speed to find that their pace makes a half-mile walk very arduous.   

I do accept that the more time people spend on SWT the more dissatisfied they are. Obviously it is possible to have satisfactory individual journeys, but regular commuters gradually experience a considerable range of problems. Passenger Focus^ statistics show much lower ratings among peak travellers.

Of course things will go wrong sometimes, but it is the attendant ^arrogance^  (Christian Wolmar^s choice of word in his book Stagecoach) which particularly upsets people. Brian Souter is famous for his words ^ethics are not irrelevant but some are incompatible with what we have to do because capitalism is based on greed^. ^Greed^ has a rather personal sense here as he and his sister own nearly a third of Stagecoach shares.  I was struck by the stark contrast between his words and those of Moir Lockhead at this year^s Passenger Focus conference, which revealed a considerable empathy with passengers and their needs. You will know better than us how far FGW actually practise empathy, but they are prepared to work with their stakeholders, which SWT are not ^ SWT just offer what people have confirmed as pure propaganda. 

Just one example of Stagecoach ethics: Stagecoach was about to be awarded a 20-year second contract on SWT when Mr Souter^s unwise business deals reduced the shares to 10p, and performance on SWT became so bad that they nearly lost the franchise altogether.

The SRA» (Strategic Rail Authority - about) then bailed them out with another ^29m of taxpayers^ money for some very questionable improvements. One of these was for an extra evening train from Poole to Waterloo. The only stock available was the Poole portion of the busy 17.15 Waterloo-Weymouth. There was a turnaround time at Poole of only a few minutes. If the 17.15 was late, all stops from Southampton to Bournemouth were axed and scores of commuters left to await the next service. I have had people stranded at Southampton ring me to have a chat as they just wanted to give vent to their anger.  It all makes the petty greed of a few MPs, their duck islands and moat cleaning look comparatively insignificant.

Incidentally, just how many big conferences do members of your group attend, how much research do they do, how much background reading, and how often do they respond to consultations? I don^t imply any criticism in posing this question, but it would be interesting to know.

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John R
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« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2009, 20:49:31 »

Denis

Several contributors to the Coffee Shop are still convinced that the Fare Strikes that More Train Less Strain instigated had no effect on public and political opinion as to the failings of the FGW (First Great Western) franchise. Despite the fact that a matter of weeks if not days later, FGW and DaFT» (Department for Transport - critical sounding abbreviation I discourage - about) apparently did a deal to reverse the worst of the franchise failings, after a huge amount of Fare Strike related VBP (Very Bad Publicity) for FGW and DaFT.

Now, it's not the time and place to reopen that particular debate, but what it shows is that there are several ways to campaign. The CoffeeShop does it one way, MTLS (More Train Less Strain) another, and your website a third way. Having glanced at your website, my own personal view is that it probably is a bit negative, and could have it's position a little more eloquently stated, but that isn't to invalidate what it is trying to achieve, which is to highlight some major deficiencies in SWT (South West Trains) performance and service delivery. I'm sure in that general aim, you have the support of everyone who contributes to the Coffee Shop, and it has probably highlighted to many of us some shortcomings in the franchise that we were not aware of.

Enjoy your tour, and please post a link to your findings and conclusions when you return.           
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Mookiemoo
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« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2009, 20:52:02 »

Advance fares: online on the phone and some machines
split ticket journeys well maybe an issue but as far as an operational point of view i dont think this is a good argument for keeping the office open
rovers as already discussed can be bought on the train ,... should be added to the self serve machines!!!
railcards for starters online and on the phone

Renewal of season tickets?
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Mookiemoo
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« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2009, 21:00:03 »

I've experienced both and I have to say - I prefer FGW (First Great Western) to SWT (South West Trains)

In general, FGW staff apply common sense to most situations.  SWT are by the book.

I recall a situation a couple of years back where I boarded at Egham going to Putney - I managed to get a parking space minutes before boarding and jumped on the train.  At Putney I walked straight to the excess fares  with the parking ticket showing when I shoved the money in the machine - didnt even run back to the car to stick it in the car - I still got penaltied.

I dont think (with the exception of maybe 1) I have come across a single FGW member of staff who would have penalty fared me for that - even the RIP.  I remember a couple of years ago leaving my season at home - got on at WOS» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) ant the TM(resolve) refused to charge me a ticket as they knew I had one - got on a train from Reading to slough (this was back when they had TM's on)  and an RIP was on - I was getting grief as to how I got into Reading station without a ticket (I was offering to pay for a ticket!) - TM also knew me an vouched for me.

I dont see that happening on SWT
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Ditched former sig - now I need to think of something amusing - brain hurts -I'll steal from the master himself - Einstein:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."

"Gravitation is not responsible for people falling in love"
moonrakerz
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« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2009, 21:28:15 »


I^m not clear what is wrong with the Guardian. It is an award-winning quality newspaper. Using the term ^Guardian reader^ in a pejorative sense is no substitute for sound argument based on research.   

Denis - I am afraid your response above does far more to illustrate your attitude to anyone who dares to not have the same views as yourself about anything - be it the rail service or choice of newspaper (I also have been known to have little digs at readers of the Daily Wail and the Torygraph). Who said the term "Guardian Reader" was "perjorative" ? Good job I didn't refer to it as The Grauniad (qv).       Still, if the cap fits...................

Your version of a "sound argument" based on "research" seems to be anecdotal "evidence" that a particular distance is a mile, then you state it might be half that, then finally you say that the distance might actually be whatever the person who walked it decides it might be - very sound !!
If your constant criticism of SWT (South West Trains) is based on similar sound evidence then SWT are probably the best rail operator in the land. I use them sometimes, as do my wife and daughter: To us they seem not particularly better or worse than most of the other rail companies - and I have actually commented on this site how much I like their colour scheme ! And as a current thread makes clear their air-con seems to work far more often than FGW (First Great Western).

I am not surprised that you seem to be getting very little out of SWT - your attitude is guaranteed to put off anyone trying to hold anything resembling a sensible conversation with you.

Thank you and good night.
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John R
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« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2009, 21:34:29 »

[ and I have actually commented on this site how much I like their colour scheme !

Gosh, we are tackling the important issues aren't we.
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grahame
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« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2009, 22:00:58 »

I'm posting a follow up here quickly in the hope that Denis gets a chance to read it before he sets off on his tour ... about which I would love to hear the good and the bad, if he cares to post (please do so  Wink ).

"The Coffeeshop" is a rather different group to most that you'll find around.  It doesn't take a specific view on particular matters (save ones where legal issues are involved) and members are free within the acceptable user policy to post what they wish - as much or as little; we're really not interested in measuring the number of conferences attended, for example.  As it says at the base of every single page This forum is provided by a customer of First Great Western, and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned.

Constructive criticism of other websites and publications, which is where this thread started, adds to the discussion and we can all learn from such things, so the moderator team will not stop in and supress such posts.  If someone feels that a website is biased and vitriolic, let him say so.   But the moderators will (and do) step in if things move on to personal attack.



Having added that official statement, I'm going to respond to some of the elements, in a fresh post, in a personal capacity.
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JayMac
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« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2009, 22:57:55 »

Thought I'd head over to SHRUG and see what all the fuss is about. Got a headache now! I had to give up in my search for a positive word said about SWT (South West Trains) on their site. One wonders what SWT did to Denis Fryer all those years ago that meant he has kept up this negative attitude for so long. It can't be good for his health! It appears that you can only go back to issue 90 of 'Hogrider' (Dec 02) on the site. I'd love to see issue 1!
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grahame
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« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2009, 23:01:54 »

A personal answer now.

I have never felt personally comfortable posting purely negative thoughts, but rather adding praise where it is due, and including those awkward facts that don't support my case rather than being "economic with the truth".  For example, I have been to Bath today, and used the new bus station. I could talk about the lack of any clocks, the fact that all the refreshment machines were out of use, the lack of a departure board, the lack of any staff except for one cleaner.  And each of those things is true.  But I can also add that it is cleaner, lighter and airyer than the previous bus station, slightly closer to the railway station (and importantly with no road to cross), and that the cleaner - who I think worked for a subcontactor, was very helpful.

Personally, I admire what MTLS (More Train Less Strain) and Tony Ambrose have had a part in achieving, but I could not take an approach that's as sharp at theirs, or as Denis's ... and that may make me a weaker campaigner that these people and their groups.  So be it - this is not a "who is the best campaigner / most knowledgable person" contest, is it?

My approach is to learn, to be well informed.  And that means a lot of reading, a lot of listening, and a lot of thought. But I am a customer (or a wannabe customer - my last 4 journeys have all been by bus to / from my home town, as First haven't been running trains at suitable times) with another job to do, a wife, a cat, a dog, and other interests. It's not a job, and there's no way I want to be measured by how many rail conferences I attend.  I have attended a few, and it's notable to sit in the audience and see an array of bald heads ahead of me; nearly everyone there is a retired gentleman and so the groups is not a valid crosssection of the travelling public.  As a hobby, when I retire (!) I might spend more time at these events ... but not at present.

Both FGW (First Great Western) and SWT (South West Trains) are parts of a system ... and that system is a very complex one,  and one in which I have serious doubts as to whether the traveller (for whom, surely, passenger railway services exist) is actually the top priority.  It's more important to keep the shareholders happy than to carry more people.  And it's clearly (VERY clearly this week if you're National Express) to keep the Minister for Transport happy - if you upset a passenger, you'll probably get away with it without even a complaint.  If you upset the Minister ...

Now, within a less than ideal system it is much more sensible to understand the system, to look for open doors where your interests co-incide with the TOC (Train Operating Company)'s interests, and push on that open door.  Add in the local transport authority and the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) to the melting pot, each with their own agendas, and it gets very interesting.

It is important to point out, to raise, and reraise the issues (readers of this post will be very clear that I think the TransWilts provision of 2 trains a day - 06:15 and 18:45 from Swindon - is a manipulated disgrace that is totally inadequate), but then to say that all the key organisations have people who realise this, who would love to help get it corrected, and who are very helpful.

This is turning into a long post, and away from the SHRUG topic.  Perhaps I should stop there, or if I get follow ups split the thread into "Campaigns" ...

P.S. Just because you don't see posts here about "I met with x" or "I attended y" or "I answered consultation z" doesn't mean that members haven't. You would be amazed, Denis ... I am fairly active, and there are others who make my efforts pale into insignificance.
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Lee
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« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2009, 02:17:00 »

Incidentally, just how many big conferences do members of your group attend, how much research do they do, how much background reading, and how often do they respond to consultations? I don^t imply any criticism in posing this question, but it would be interesting to know.

Denis, I'm going to answer that from the purely personal perspective of being an active Save The Train (http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/) member.

Big conferences/meetings attended?

I've attended a few in my time, but it largely depends on their nature. The active members of STT (Save the Train) tend to discuss upcoming events ahead of time, and if it is felt that my presence would be helpful/useful, then I attend.

How much research do I do/How much background reading?

I like to utilise as many forms of research as possible. This covers a wide range, from analysing documents/articles right through to going out and seeing things for myself. You will also find me frequently asking members of the CoffeeShop forum for their views, as I feel that its great strength is the sheer diversity of members different views and perspectives, which can provide a fascinating insight.

In addition to this, I ask people who are closely involved with the issue at hand, as was the case when I asked you a while back for your view on how the Southampton-Didcot transport corridor should be developed. I was very grateful for your input, as indeed was I grateful for the input of others, such as Andrew Haines's team and officers from several local authorities.

How often do I respond to consultations?

This is one of my main roles within STT. My way of operating tends to be to fully research/draw on my experience of the issues/questions raised, and then ensure that I respond from a TransWilts perspective.

I feel that liasing with other groups who are responding is important too - for example, STT worked closely with Campaign for Better Transport when formulating its recent responses to the DfT» (Department for Transport - about)'s "Delivering a Sustainable Transport System - Consultation on planning for 2014 and beyond" and Wiltshire Council's LTP3 Consultation Issues Paper.

On a more general note, John R's view that there are several ways to campaign particularly strikes a chord.

Industry Insider praised our way of campaigning - this is largely due to the wide spectrum of methods favoured by STT supporters, from those (like me) whose instincts are towards a more direct approach, through to those (like grahame) whose instincts are more cautious. Add to that people like Phil, Sion, Chris, Nick and others who bring different but equally vital attributes to the table, and the fact that we all have a lot of respect for eachother, then you have the ingredients for the balanced approach that we have arrived at.

It wouldnt work for everybody, though, and people may have what they feel to be perfectly valid reasons for disagreeing with the way STT does things. As grahame says, we can all learn from constructive criticism, even someone like me who has been known for robustly defending my views.

At the end of the day though, whether you are STT, MTLS (More Train Less Strain) or SHRUG, a campaigning group has to make its own judgement call on how to campaign, taking all the factors relevant to their particular situation into account.

Finally, I would like to say that I am indeed aware of the no450 campaign. They have been very supportive indeed of STT and its aims, for which I am very grateful.
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grahame
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« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2009, 09:16:31 »

Incidentally, just how many big conferences do members of your group attend, how much research do they do, how much background reading, and how often do they respond to consultations? I don^t imply any criticism in posing this question, but it would be interesting to know.

I'm coming back to add a little more onto this thread; I've been thinking about it overnight, and suggestions that various of the people who run this site don't really pull their weight are hurtful.  OK - I can take it, but is "sure as eggs is eggs" discourages me from taking such people into my confidence; where I see such a negative flow, I am left thinking "if I say something / give a concession, it'll be just be thrown back in my face".   What do I mean by that?

Let's say, for example, that I give you a punnet of strawberries. Most people will say 'thank you' ... eat them, pass them on, and quietly discard the one fruit that had gone soft. But with some people, you would never here the end of that soft strawberry. Perhaps it would be elavated to "rotting" and "mouldy" in the telling of the tale.  And (when you think about it), you'll come to realise that the complaining recipient ate 19 of the 20 fruit and probably enjoyed them ...

Last weekend, I was sorting out my July diary and taking a sample week it already includes the following extra on top of my normal work (I am giving a 4 day training course, and probably serving hotel breakfasts on 2 or 3 mornings).

Tuesday
* Wiltshire Council (local area) Meeting
* Chamber of Commerce
Wednesday
* New Businesses Meeting
Thursday
* Preparatory meeting - presentation to key player group
Friday
* Presentation to key player group (holiday from work to do so)
Saturday
* Stand / show - local carnival
Sunday
* Open Gardens

That won't be the 'sum total' either; I already have a couple of other tentative appointments. And there is reading up, responding, looking after the technical aspects of this forum ... I regularly respond to consultations and help others who are doing so, I occasionally attend bigger conferences (I'm going to try to quantify that ... I'm going for 3 or 4 per annum on transport topics that require a journey of 40 miles or more).

Denis - as you made the challenge, perhaps you would be so good as to share a sample week of yours in a similar way?

« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 09:25:34 by grahame » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2009, 10:20:28 »

I have to say that I am very grateful for the enormous time and effort that grahame puts into STT (Save the Train) and the Coffeeshop, somehow managing to do so alongside his many other commitments. It would be fair to say that, without him, neither STT nor the Coffeeshop would exist, or certainly not in anything like the same form.

On a personal note, he has become an extremely good friend of mine during the time we have campaigned together, and I am very grateful for that as well.
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Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
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