Cardiff Airport - recent developments, including road and railbus links - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

Airport travel is a massive earner for railway companies, where access is made convenient and cheap travel can be booked at the same time as the air travel.  It cannot at present because if one booked to travel from Lulsgate to Split (say) in August, one could not book a rail ticket to Lulsgate.  One can book one's car parking at Lulsgate silver parking or any other of the many choices there now.  This is a huge competitive disadvantage for rail, whether we are talking about Rhoose, Lulsgate, or any other airport.

One can buy a through ticket, although for travel in August that would only currently be a walk-up fare without seat reservation. Around 12 weeks out from the date of travel then seat reservations (where available) can be had. If there's no Advance Purchase fares then an AP can be bought to Temple Meads and a BRISTOL TM^‡(resolve) - BRISTOL AIR BUS add-on can be purchased.

There are similar through fares and add-ons to many UK^▸ (United Kingdom) airports that are not rail connected. The only disadvantages the rail industry might have is they don't promote them enough and they aren't routinely sold by the rail industry as a package with a flight ticket. But then the airline industry/travel agents will only routinely offer the 'airport transfer' and rarely offer the facility to book onward rail travel as part of a package. So it cuts both ways.

Through tickets/add ons to airports are there and will be sold if asked for.

[swrural]

Airport travel is a massive earner for railway companies, where access is made convenient and cheap travel can be booked at the same time as the air travel.  It cannot at present because if one booked to travel from Lulsgate to Split (say) in August, one could not book a rail ticket to Lulsgate.  One can book one's car parking at Lulsgate silver parking or any other of the many choices there now.  This is a huge competitive disadvantage for rail, whether we are talking about Rhoose, Lulsgate, or any other airport.

One can buy a through ticket, although for travel in August that would only currently be a walk-up fare without seat reservation. Around 12 weeks out from the date of travel then seat reservations (where available) can be had. If there's no Advance Purchase fares then an AP can be bought to Temple Meads and a BRISTOL TM^‡(resolve) - BRISTOL AIR BUS add-on can be purchased.

There are similar through fares and add-ons to many UK^▸ (United Kingdom) airports that are not rail connected. The only disadvantages the rail industry might have is they don't promote them enough and they aren't routinely sold by the rail industry as a package with a flight ticket. But then the airline industry/travel agents will only routinely offer the 'airport transfer' and rarely offer the facility to book onward rail travel as part of a package. So it cuts both ways.

Through tickets/add ons to airports are there and will be sold if asked for.

BNM, thanks very much, but I was aware of nearly all that, and with respect, this is precisely what I was complaining about!  I will repeat my point.  One needs to be able to book one's cheap advance rail ticket at precisely the same time as one books one's holiday.  So if a walk on ticket costs ^100 in August and ^40 now, one needs to be able to buy it now.  One can't.

Incidentally, I wonder if you fly.  Do you realise that I have just booked a return ticket to AMS for my wife later in the year (well end Feb) for ^75 return from Lulsgate.  (There were cheaper available but convenience was opted for at ^15 extra).

Try that on Eurostar!!  I read today that DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about)' Bahns planned service to AMS is delayed yet again (talk of 2015 or later).  What on earth are the railways playing at?  For having to change vehicles at least thrice extra, and taking all day, they should be selling advance return rail tickets to AMS for, say, ^50, not (typically) ^200! 

 

[John R]

One needs to be able to book one's cheap advance rail ticket at precisely the same time as one books one's holiday. 

Why does one?

I can understand if you booked a holiday abroad then you would want to know that you can get to and from the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) to the chosen location on the required days at the time of booking. But simply getting to the local airport for departure doesn't have the same degree of criticality.  We're booked to go to Italy in March from Gatwick, and it's only in the last month or so that I've sorted out arrangements for travel from Nailsea to Gatwick.

[grahame]

One needs to be able to book one's cheap advance rail ticket at precisely the same time as one books one's holiday. 

Why does one?

Well - I would certainly prefer to do my bookings all at the same time - I can know what the total travel price will be before I make my final decision, and I've not got to remember to come back to my booking 12 weeks before departure for a second wave of arrangements.

[John R]

Point taken Grahame. Prefer (your words) maybe, "need" to less so. Point I am making is that the journey from home to the airport is usually not such a material part of your journey planning that it's going to influence your holiday plans.  I certainly don't need to book my ticket to Gatwick (or Bristol, or Cardiff to use their more contemporary names) nine months in advance, so it was that assertion that I was challenging.   

[swrural]

Point taken Grahame. Prefer (your words) maybe, "need" to less so. Point I am making is that the journey from home to the airport is usually not such a material part of your journey planning that it's going to influence your holiday plans.  I certainly don't need to book my ticket to Gatwick (or Bristol, or Cardiff to use their more contemporary names) nine months in advance, so it was that assertion that I was challenging.   

John R
I disagree with respect.  Only a small number of pax are rail buffs,determined, come what may, to go by rail.

You do 'need' to if there is another transport method, in competition with what you are intending to book.  I read all the convoluted stories of booking rail tickets on here (I only joined the coffee shop recently) and it bears out my experience that rail companies seem determined to erect barriers where there need be none.  All the various options and rules and regs are *totally* off-putting.  (As for splitting fare savings - well!!).  I want to travel by rail and we both have senior railcards but the obstacles, we find, are immense.  If I asked Graham about visiting his hotel and asked about getting there by rail and got the reply - 'oh I don't know anything about that' I should be astonished.  I would expect him to provide me with all the info I needed to book the travel or at least as much help as possible. 

A leisure passenger needs to be able to book everything in one go and 'put it to bed' as it were; a package in fact and why package tours became popular.  If you sign on to Easyjet (for instance - as it happens, I refuse to fly with Ryannair) you can book everything you need to book in one go, unless you are insisting on booking your journey to the airport by rail in more than three months' time.  The rail companies should be a page of that booking sequence and one should be able to book it there and then, just like car hire, hotels, etc, as can be done now.

I understand the 3 month restriction is due to NR^» (Network Rail - home page) timetabling.  Well they need to change that - now.  How ridiculous; are we really saying there is uncertainty about whether NR can provide a track in 4 months' time?

I do not know whether advance rail fares are cheaper, the more in advance you book them.  Perhaps an 'insider' knows the answer to this - Ollie perhaps?  If there is a minimum fare (maximum discount) then either way, one should be able to buy tickets for up to a year ahead.

[John R]

Only a small number of pax are rail buffs,determined, come what may, to go by rail.

Indeed, and when it came time to make arrangements to get to Gatwick for our next holiday that I mentioned earlier, I weighed up the options and decided to drive. Though fares didn't come into that equation, it was more the convenience given timings, not helped by the Easter block of Reading. 

Clearly we have a different view as to how we go about making arrangements for travel, so I respect your view. I guess it emphasises that different groups of people have different ways in which they access the rail system.

I agree with you in one regard though, in refusing to use Ryanair.

[Chris from Nailsea]

BNM, thanks very much, but I was aware of nearly all that, and with respect, this is precisely what I was complaining about!

Point taken Grahame.

John R
I disagree with respect.

Clearly we have a different view as to how we go about making arrangements for travel, so I respect your view.

One of the many strengths of this forum is that we can all 'agree to disagree' so very politely: thank you, gentlemen! 

[Red Squirrel]

Interesting piece in a publication titled 'Wales Online'

Could Cardiff Airport form a new UK^▸ (United Kingdom) hub alongside Birmingham and Heathrow?

Experts want expansion and improved rail links for airport owned by the Welsh Government

Proposals for the future of Cardiff Airport are being put forward

The team behind the bid to integrate Cardiff, Birmingham and Heathrow airports into a new national hub will today submit their multi-billion pound vision to the commission charged with investigating aviation capacity.

Source: Wales Online

We shouldn't dismiss the possibility that, with improved transport links and sufficient funding, Rhoose could grow to rival Lulsgate Bottom. However this scheme has HS3 as a prerequisite - the first time I've seen that particular combination of letters and numerals - so I think I'll be riding on the B&NS to Radstock before it happens...

[Lee]

The most recent credible study I have found into HSR to Bristol & Cardiff is Greengauge 21's Fast Forward national HSR network proposals.

As far as Bristol/Cardiff is concerned the proposals essentially consist of a new line from Didcot-Bristol Parkway, a new link into Heathrow and an upgrade of the rest of the route. In their words:

This provides the required capacity benefits and journey time benefits partially through the higher speeds but also through removal of intermediate stops in the fastest trains.

The western route to Bristol and Cardiff is listed as being part of Phase 4, to be delivered by 2041...

They also produced this report, in association with the Great Western Partnership on how a proposed 25-year investment programme on the Great Western Main Line would help enable high speed train services. This would include proposals to build up regional and local services along the route, one of which involves introducing an hourly TransWilts service from 2019.

Greenguage 21's own submission to the Airports Commission can be found here.

One of the quotes from the Wales Online article that I found most interesting was this one:

Acknowledging the uncertainty surrounding the HS3 network, the authors have also submitted an alternative proposal.

This ^3bn option would involve investment in improved regional rail and road links in the Cardiff region and an upgrade and expansion of the airport.

Under this slimmed-down model, the airport would only have eight million passengers a year, not 20 million.

With the HS3 option, the backers anticipate ^4.25bn could be retained in the Welsh economy, compared with ^1.25bn for the fall-back plan.

Anybody have any details on what the "slimmed-down model" entails?

[anthony215]

The welsh government are launching a new express service running from Cardiff Airport to Cardiff city centre running every 20 minutes and operating 24 hours per day.

This new service will start from next month and will be operated by first cymru

[JayMac]

I presume with mention of First Cymru, you are referring to an express bus service, anthony 215? 

[anthony215]

Yes I am.

The route is expected to be similar to that taken by Cardiff Buses X91 between the city centre and the airport however the buses will continue down to serve Cardiff Bay

[Rhydgaled]

The new bus service in question is the TrawsCymru T9.

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Express bus service for Cardiff Airport under review


The bus service runs every 20 minutes from Cardiff to the airport

An express bus service to Cardiff Airport is being reviewed, five months after it was launched.

The service runs every 20 minutes between the airport in the Vale of Glamorgan and Cardiff city centre from early morning until late at night.

The Conservatives said the buses were "invariably empty" except for drivers, and the service was "unsustainable".

The Welsh government said the review, to see whether changes were needed, was always intended to be carried out.

The airport was bought by Welsh ministers for ^52m in March last year and the bus service is part of the strategy to reverse a slump in passenger numbers.

In a written answer, Transport Minister Edwina Hart said: "It was always the intention to review the service after it had been operational for a few months and the minister has asked Professor Stuart Cole to examine whether any revisions to the current service are required without compromising its principal objectives as an express service. Professor Cole is due to report back shortly."

The comments were in response to a question from Shadow Transport Minister Byron Davies.

While Welsh Conservative leader and South Wales Central AM Andrew RT Davies described the service as a "publicly funded ghost train".

"As a local resident I regularly see this bus, invariably empty except for the driver. At almost half a million (pounds) in Welsh Labour government subsidy, that's an exceptionally expensive service to support and on current passenger numbers is simply unsustainable."

"Reliable transport links are integral to the success of Cardiff Airport, but at present this route simply isn't providing value for money," he added.

But Cardiff Business School transport expert Dr Andrew Potter said such services were needed to convince airlines there would be passengers available. "Airlines planning cycles are such that they're not just going to start routes instantly," he said. "It's going to take six months (or) 12 months, to attract routes into the airport and, therefore, it's a bit like the chicken and egg. You need the bus routes to attract the airlines and you then get the airlines to get the passengers onto the buses."

"At certain times of day you do get more people on the buses anyway, because the flights come in in peaks and troughs, there are busy times and quiet times. But you can't have the bus service at the busy times and stop it at the quiet times because you've still got to use the asset somehow, it's still costing you money. So you may as well run it for a small number of passengers than have it sitting around, still with the cost."

Dr Potter warned changes to the service, such as making it available for people living near the airport could slow the service down and make it less attractive to air passengers. "If you look at a lot of other airports, they actually have a mix of services going to an airport, express ones that take you to the city centre and then more local buses, that then feed into that, and serve the local community."