Cardiff Airport - recent developments, including road and railbus links - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[anthony215]

Not surprised to be honest with everyone. I have seen this service on a number of occasions and the maximum number of passengers has always been between 3 & 5 not counting the driver.

All this money spent could have been better used to improve the former service X91 back when it served the airport (No longer does because of the T9) including a full clockface hourly/half hourly service with early morning an late evening services with buses also serving Aberthaw, St Athan and Llantwit Major. The boss of Cardiff Bus at teh time made a comment in local press about why bother with such a service when you could improve teh existing service.

Brewers/SWT^▸ (South West Trains) & Cardiff bus all tried running dedicated express servicees to the airport non of which were a sucess the cloest being Cardiff Buses attempt when they merged services X90 & X91 to have a full hourly service between Cardiff & Llantwit Major via the airport which inccidently was faster than the current T9 (Seing as it never went via Cardiff Bay) and passengers  could by a wide varierty of tickets.


Currently the only alternative is the railink bus & train on on New Adventure Travels  service 303/304 Bridgend - Barry and change for a service to Cardiff in Barry.

[trainer]

Having a relative who works at Cardiff Airport, I fear that the bus patronage is indicative of the much more serious situation at the Welsh capital's airport.  If there was not a national boundary between us, I suspect no-one would be suggesting Bristol and Cardiff should be competing within a relatively few miles of each other.

I did see four people travel by the Vale of Glamorgan line once (!) to Rhoose with heavy suitcases presumably for the airport.  But they were travelling from Llantwit Major to the west. On the other seven journeys I have made on the line no-one seems to have used the train for the airport.

I note First Greyhound appear to have a thriving business with coaches to Bristol Airport from South Wales.

[grahame]

Having a relative who works at Cardiff Airport, I fear that the bus patronage is indicative of the much more serious situation at the Welsh capital's airport

March 2013, http://www.airportwatch.org.uk/?p=2194 :

Cardiff^s passengers have declined from around 2 million in 2007 to just over 1 million in 2012, as many have chosen Bristol airport instead.  Bristol airport is now concerned that Cardiff would now unfairly benefit from state support. Cardiff was hit by the loss of bmibaby in 2011.  The airport^s board will try and get in a commercial operator and hopes to attract long haul and transatlantic flights. Only recently there was news that Swiss airline Helvetic will pull out of Cardiff, 2 years after the Welsh government spent ^500,000 marketing Wales in Switzerland.

December 2013, http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/flybe-cuts-services-cardiff-paris-6370182

Budget airline Flybe has confirmed that two routes from Cardiff to Paris Charles de Gaulle and Glasgow will be withdrawn with effect from January next year.

Not all bad news: http://www.uk-airport-news.info/cardiff-airport-news.htm

22.12.13 Cardiff Airport expects 20,000 passengers over Christmas
22.12.13 Ski flights return to Cardiff Airport after three year absence
21.12.13 First Minister: New airline 'shows potential' of Cardiff Airport
21.12.13 Aviation group celebrates as new airlines and routes launched from Cardiff Airport
20.12.13 New flights see more passengers at Cardiff Airport this Christmas
20.12.13 CityJet picks up Flybe routes at Cardiff
19.12.13 More new services including long-haul cruise flights from Cardiff Airport
19.12.13 Cardiff Airport boss: new routes 'encouraging'

[grahame]

Also being doing some maths on the potential market size

Cardiff airport ... 1 million passenger per annum, 48 runs round daily on T9 ... if every passenger used those buses, there would be 18 passengers per bus.

Bristol airport ... 6.3 million passenger per annum, 97 runs round daily on route A1 ... if every passenger used those buses, there would be 88 passengers per bus.

Not totally fair - you have 18 runs on te 905 (?) also to Cardiff.  You have the A4 (19 round trips / how is that doing?) and the Bristol Greyhound (15 round trips?) also to Bristol.  And note - I have not allowed for airport staff, but then neither have I suggested what proportion of passengers might use the bus (and I can't easily find mode splits for airport arrivals via Google - anyone?)

I also looked at long term parking - see if that made a difference:
Bristol - long stay official, gate price, 1 week - 67.00
Cardiff - long stay official, gate price, 1 week - 65.50

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Cardiff Airport flights scrapped by Germanwings


It was hoped the airline would boost tourism from Germany

A German airline is ending its flights between Cardiff and Dusseldorf.

Germanwings told BBC Wales the summer service would not return in 2015 as the route "did not meet our expectations".

The airline is owned by Lufthansa - Europe's largest operator - and launched the route in 2013.

Cardiff Airport said it was in discussions with a number of airlines including Germanwings about developing routes between Wales and Germany, including Dusseldorf.

Spencer Birns, the airport's aviation and business development director, said: "The Dusseldorf-Cardiff route has operated successfully over the past two years as a summer-only service focused on bringing German visitors to Wales. The reports circulating today regarding the service for next year are misleading as we are in discussions with a number of airlines - including Germanwings - regarding continuing the development of services linking Wales to Germany for 2015 and beyond, which includes the Dusseldorf route. This is in line with good commercial practice."

Welsh Conservative leader Andrew RT Davies said it was "extremely worrying news" for the airport after the loss of flights to Glasgow.

The Welsh government has been asked to comment.

[Rhydgaled]

I think 'Cardiff' Airport is rather uselessly suituated in terms of other transport links, far from the main line railway and M4. How could it ever hope to compete with Bristol? Of course neither airport has a rail link, but Bristol is more centrally located within the south-west of Great Britain.

[JayMac]

... but is still a long way from a motorway or main railway station.

[TonyK]

I think the answer to the question "Could Cardiff Airport form a new UK^▸ (United Kingdom) hub?" is "Dim". As indeed is the outlook.

There are 5 flights tomorrow between 6am and 8.20am. One is a six-way code share to Amsterdam, one is a local hop to Ynys Mon. Bristol sees 16 departures in the same period. Political will and subsidy will ensure Cardiff's survival. It does not seem as though there is a queue of operators wanting to fly from there.

[LiskeardRich]

... but is still a long way from a motorway or main railway station.

Cardiff airport is 10.1 miles from j33 of the M4. Bristol airport is 18.7 miles from J23 of M5 and 12.5 miles from J18 of M5. J23 for people from south, J18 for people from the north.
I always check Cardiff flights out when going away but always seems limited choice.

[grahame]

... but is still a long way from a motorway or main railway station.

Airfields / airstrips that are / were near main roads and/or main railways in the Wider Bristol Area have included Filton, Hullavington and Kemble.  Is it more than a co-incidence that none of these has been / was turned into a regional hub?

[Red Squirrel]

... but is still a long way from a motorway or main railway station.

Airfields / airstrips that are / were near main roads and/or main railways in the Wider Bristol Area have included Filton, Hullavington and Kemble.  Is it more than a co-incidence that none of these has been / was turned into a regional hub?

Surely it's just the case that whilst most people want an airport within easy reach, few people want to live near one. This means that established airports, even if they aren't in the best place (Heathrow anyone?) tend to be developed whilst new ones don't.

[BerkshireBugsy]

I'm not an expert when it comes to flight routes in and out of Cardiff airport but looking at Google maps it looks like the approach from the South East is mainly over the Bristol Channel. I would like to think that an aircraft landing at Cardiff from this direction would not be the cause of alot of noise if decending from over English landfall.

Looking at the land to the NW of the Airport there does not seem to be much in the way of concentrated development under the flight path under the approach to Cardiff.

Am I right in think that the runway at Cardiff is more suitable for larger aircraft than Bristol? I seem to remember they service 747-xxx Aircraft at Cardiff although I accept they will be lightly loaded on arrival/departure from Cardiff

[Red Squirrel]

I'm not an expert when it comes to flight routes in and out of Cardiff airport but looking at Google maps it looks like the approach from the South East is mainly over the Bristol Channel. I would like to think that an aircraft landing at Cardiff from this direction would not be the cause of alot of noise if decending from over English landfall.

Looking at the land to the NW of the Airport there does not seem to be much in the way of concentrated development under the flight path under the approach to Cardiff.

Am I right in think that the runway at Cardiff is more suitable for larger aircraft than Bristol? I seem to remember they service 747-xxx Aircraft at Cardiff although I accept they will be lightly loaded on arrival/departure from Cardiff

I'm no expert either, but looking at it on Google Maps I think I can see the downside of its location... what it needs to make it a success is a fixed crossing roughly between Penarth and Weston S M. Investment like that, and a bit of political will, could form the basis of a 'Western Powerhouse' linking Bristol, Cardiff, Bath and Newport. Lundy Megacity, anyone?

[chrisr_75]

I'm not an expert when it comes to flight routes in and out of Cardiff airport but looking at Google maps it looks like the approach from the South East is mainly over the Bristol Channel. I would like to think that an aircraft landing at Cardiff from this direction would not be the cause of alot of noise if decending from over English landfall.

Looking at the land to the NW of the Airport there does not seem to be much in the way of concentrated development under the flight path under the approach to Cardiff.

Am I right in think that the runway at Cardiff is more suitable for larger aircraft than Bristol? I seem to remember they service 747-xxx Aircraft at Cardiff although I accept they will be lightly loaded on arrival/departure from Cardiff

I'm no expert either, but looking at it on Google Maps I think I can see the downside of its location... what it needs to make it a success is a fixed crossing roughly between Penarth and Weston S M. Investment like that, and a bit of political will, could form the basis of a 'Western Powerhouse' linking Bristol, Cardiff, Bath and Newport. Lundy Megacity, anyone?

The current fixed crossings of the Severn estuary appear to work perfectly well at the moment as everyone just goes to Bristol or Heathrow airports...Airlines and passengers just don't seem to be interested in Cardiff airport at all and it seems that is the viscous circle preventing further development.

The runway is indeed copiously lengthy, on account of BA^» (British Airways - about) having a heavy maintenance base located on the airfield, which handles aircraft up to B747-400 size. The BA Airbus A380 has also paid a visit, so presumably once these are commonplace in BA's fleet, they will also be maintained at Cardiff.

[Tim]

Am I right in think that the runway at Cardiff is more suitable for larger aircraft than Bristol? I seem to remember they service 747-xxx Aircraft at Cardiff although I accept they will be lightly loaded on arrival/departure from Cardiff

Correct.  The runway at Cardiff is 2,392m, which is longer than Bristol's (which is very short) but not that long.  It can only handle large a/c when they are empty.  As an example an A380-800 at maximum take off weight needs 2,700m.  If Cardiff became a hub it would need more runways and longer ones.