Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 17:55 28 Mar 2024
- How do I renew my UK passport and what is the 10-year rule?
- Passengers pleaded with knifeman during attack
* Family anger at sentence on fatal crash driver, 19
- Easter travel warning as millions set to hit roads
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
28th Mar (1988)
Woman found murdered on Orpington to London train (*)

Train RunningCancelled
16:54 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
17:48 Reading to Gatwick Airport
17:54 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
17:57 London Paddington to Worcester Foregate Street
18:04 Bristol Temple Meads to Filton Abbey Wood
18:04 Bedwyn to Newbury
18:08 London Paddington to Frome
18:26 Newbury to Bedwyn
18:37 Westbury to Swindon
18:51 Filton Abbey Wood to Bristol Temple Meads
18:55 Bedwyn to Newbury
19:24 Newbury to Bedwyn
19:29 Gatwick Airport to Reading
19:33 London Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill
19:55 Bedwyn to Newbury
20:13 Swindon to Westbury
20:16 Frome to Westbury
20:49 Newbury to Bedwyn
20:56 Worcester Foregate Street to London Paddington
21:16 Bedwyn to Newbury
Short Run
14:49 Plymouth to Cardiff Central
15:10 Gloucester to Weymouth
15:15 Plymouth to London Paddington
15:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
15:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
15:42 Exeter St Davids to London Paddington
16:19 Carmarthen to London Paddington
16:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
16:35 London Paddington to Plymouth
16:50 Plymouth to London Paddington
17:03 London Paddington to Penzance
17:30 London Paddington to Taunton
17:30 Warminster to Bristol Temple Meads
17:36 Swindon to Westbury
17:36 London Paddington to Plymouth
Delayed
13:59 Cardiff Central to Penzance
14:15 Penzance to London Paddington
14:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
14:36 London Paddington to Paignton
15:03 London Paddington to Penzance
16:03 London Paddington to Penzance
Additional 17:17 Exeter St Davids to Penzance
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 28, 2024, 18:01:14 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[133] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[132] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[53] Return of the BRUTE?
[44] If not HS2 to Manchester, how will traffic be carried?
[41] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[32] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
 
News: the Great Western Coffee Shop ... keeping you up to date with travel around the South West
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 25 26 [27] 28 29 ... 176
  Print  
Author Topic: Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion  (Read 1046667 times)
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4355


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #390 on: November 26, 2010, 16:50:27 »

Yes, but it didn't travel at 125 mph though.
But surely a modern version could travel at 125 mph?
Exactly the ECML (East Coast Main Line) have operated 125 plus with loco's and DVT(resolve)'s for nearly 20 years
Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
onthecushions
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 977


View Profile
« Reply #391 on: November 26, 2010, 17:00:57 »

Yes, but it didn't travel at 125 mph though.

Not legally anyway.............

OTC
Logged
paul7575
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5316


View Profile
« Reply #392 on: November 26, 2010, 17:49:49 »

One of the stupidist things the current regime has given us is HSTs (High Speed Train) on the ECML (East Coast Main Line) running Newcastle and Leeds services entirely under the wires because of lack of suitable electric stock.

One of the problems with the ECML is that most trains cannot do an out and back run in the same day.  Once you accept the concept of through trains from Inverness or Aberdeen to/from Kings Cross a few times a day, to get full utilisation of the stock they have to do additional 'short' runs to employ them fully.  So for example (theoretically cos I haven't got real diagrams) an EC HST might do Leeds > Aberdeen > Kings Cross > Newcastle over a day.   

If they hadn't already had the HSTs in service with a 25 yr remaining life at the time the electrification happened, maybe diesel haulage of Mk 4 coaching sets north of Edinburgh would have been introduced instead.

Paul

 
Logged
Worcester_Passenger
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1703


View Profile
« Reply #393 on: November 26, 2010, 19:18:55 »

One of the stupidist things the current regime has given us is HSTs (High Speed Train) on the ECML (East Coast Main Line) running Newcastle and Leeds services entirely under the wires because of lack of suitable electric stock.

One of the problems with the ECML is that most trains cannot do an out and back run in the same day.  Once you accept the concept of through trains from Inverness or Aberdeen to/from Kings Cross a few times a day, to get full utilisation of the stock they have to do additional 'short' runs to employ them fully.  So for example (theoretically cos I haven't got real diagrams) an EC HST might do Leeds > Aberdeen > Kings Cross > Newcastle over a day.  

You're both partly-right. There are some diagrams posted at http://www.thejunction.org.uk/. If you look at the East Coast HST ones, there are 11 - of which 3 are wholly under the wires.
Logged
paul7575
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5316


View Profile
« Reply #394 on: November 26, 2010, 20:14:52 »

I remember there was a time when there were no ECML (East Coast Main Line) HST (High Speed Train) diagrams fully under the wires, but increased services in recent years, such as the additional Leeds services have also led to more HST use, probably as they were all that was available. I expect the 91/HST balance was just about right in the nineties...

Paul 
Logged
willc
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2330


View Profile
« Reply #395 on: November 27, 2010, 00:04:40 »

Slightly surprising that DafT seem to have ruled out the Voyager with an electric transformer coach idea which Bombardier has been pushing hard, in particular as a way to speed up MML» (Midland Main Line. - about) wiring.

That hasn't really been proposed as an IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) option though has it. Adding a pantograph to various Voyagers and Meridians is a way of allowing the existing fleet to run under wires where their routes currently allow them to, such as on the ECML (East Coast Main Line) or south of Bedford, and at the same time lengthen to 5 or 6 coaches long.

That would be a huge benefit to those fleets, but they'd still be used in their current areas AFAICT (as far as I can tell)...

Paul 

I think that you are right Paul.  Although it is not completely clear to me that the governemnt will choose one of the EIP options on the table at the moment.  They might choose something else.  One option for them would be to choose an electric fleet for the routes that are wired and a diesel  fleet for the non-wired routes.  The temptation must be to choose DMUs (Diesel Multiple Unit) rather than proper deisel locos and the voyager/pantagraph argument could be used to justify that decision. 

The options the Government is now considering were made quite clear by DafT yesterday, which I posted on the previous page:

Quote
The Department has evaluated possible alternatives to the original IEP proposal and has narrowed the consideration to two leading options; a revised bid from Agility Trains, and an alternative for a fleet of all electric trains  which could be coupled to new diesel locomotives where the overhead electric wires end.

The bi-mode element of the revised bid from Hitachi/Agility, according to Modern Railways, now has underfloor diesel engines - sound familiar? - hence my surprise that a Voyager-type train with a transformer car was out of the running when the Japanese are now offering the exact same concept for IEP.

And note new diesels, not 67s or anything else, so I would imagine it would be easy enough to design them to be driven from the cab of the electric train they are coupled to, if this is the way they choose to go.

 
Quote
I think it is a no brainer to make those journeys with deisel traction the whole way.


And have a load of diesels with different performance characteristics sharing the fast lines from Paddington to Reading with electrics off to Bristol and Cardiff? That would be fun for the timetablers...

Quote
Does confirmation of electrification to Oxford mean that there will be some re-thinking on Crossrail? It would surely be a good opportunity to make better use of the Crossrail tunnel, reducing the number of trains that will terminate at Paddington from the East, and free up some platform space at Paddington.

There won't be any rethinking, at least not until the 319s need replacing. Using secondhand emus is critical to making the numbers stack up for Oxford and Newbury electrification. Crossrail and the extended Thameslink network are both intended to shove 20 or so trains per hour through the tunnels in the peaks, which implies lots of doors, like a Tube train, to get people on and off sharpish, which is why the 319s need to be replaced on Thameslink duties. Logically Crossrail should go out to Reading and given that they need to shave ^1bn off the bill to meet the government's new price target, not building stabling sidings at Maidenhead would certainly help. Since they aren't starting electrification just yet, there is time to thrash all this out.
Logged
standclearplease
Full Member
***
Posts: 86


View Profile
« Reply #396 on: November 27, 2010, 09:52:46 »

Just out of interest, do the government have any plans to use North Pole depot for CrossRail or the new electric IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.)?
Logged
paul7575
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5316


View Profile
« Reply #397 on: November 27, 2010, 14:54:55 »

Just out of interest, do the government have any plans to use North Pole depot for CrossRail or the new electric IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.)?

Crossrail definitely not, that's Old Oak Common, but GW (Great Western) IEP maybe, according to the GW RUS (Route Utilisation Strategy)

Paul
Logged
paul7575
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5316


View Profile
« Reply #398 on: November 27, 2010, 15:08:40 »


The options the Government is now considering were made quite clear by DafT yesterday, which I posted on the previous page:

The bi-mode element of the revised bid from Hitachi/Agility, according to Modern Railways, now has underfloor diesel engines - sound familiar? - hence my surprise that a Voyager-type train with a transformer car was out of the running when the Japanese are now offering the exact same concept for IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.).

As I see it, a 'Voyager type train' as an IEP alternative is currently a totally separate debate to Bombardier's existing proposal for alterations to Meridians and Voyagers. All that has been proposed in the rail press is additional intermediate carriages with pantographs etc to stick in the existing fleet.  That's really all I was pointing out.

I'm not sure Bombardier are yet in a position to officially tout it as an alternative to Hitachi's offering of an underfloor engined bimode 5 car unit - until (and if) such time as the competition is reopened.  So as of now, the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) cannot bring an extended Voyager into the running - however this may change in future.

Paul
Logged
willc
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2330


View Profile
« Reply #399 on: November 27, 2010, 15:54:47 »

Quote
All that has been proposed in the rail press

It is a bit more than a proposal in the rail press. It is a deadly serious idea, which Bombardier has been doing development work on with the support of other UK (United Kingdom) rail manufacturers, the leasing companies which own the Voyagers and Meridians, and XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)), Virgin and EMT» (East Midlands Trains - about). It is detailed enough that there is a figure for new-build pantograph coaches, 123, plus 21 converted from existing coaches.

And DafT can bring anything into the running it likes, whenever it likes - and has, in the shape of an all-electric train plus diesel locos as a rival to the latest variant of the IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) concept, having ruled out diesel drags previously.

If all Hitachi ends up being offered is a contract to replace FGW (First Great Western) and East Coast's HSTs (High Speed Train), rather than all the other things IEP was supposed to do, will they still be interested, or be willing to build an assembly plant in the UK?
Logged
Timmer
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 6293


View Profile
« Reply #400 on: November 27, 2010, 18:40:04 »

Please no more underfloor engined long distance Intercity services. If changing from electrified to diesel traction using locos works in mainland Europe on routes where they wires end, why not here?

Still with the speed that this is all not happening at least I know there are a good few years yet of travelling on HSTs (High Speed Train) Smiley  I find it staggering that for a build of train that was meant to be temporary before the release of APT (Advanced Passenger Train), that no one has come up with a better train than the good old HST.
Logged
XPT
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 163


View Profile
« Reply #401 on: November 27, 2010, 19:51:27 »

I haven't read through this massive thread, but the rumours that the replacement to the HST (High Speed Train)'s *could* be 5-car Voyager like trains doesn't sound good.  I thought lessons would have been learnt after the fiasco of using those 4 or 5 car Voyagers on the long distance cross country routes where the trains are usually packed out.  Longer trains are needed.   With expected further growth in train passengers this decade, running 4/5 car trains on Intercity route is not a good idea.  And please let's hope these new trains have decent comfortable seating including seats that line up with the windows!  Here is a good example of what comfortable seating SHOULD be like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRIMre6BKos
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 22:50:10 by XPT » Logged
Worcester_Passenger
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 1703


View Profile
« Reply #402 on: November 27, 2010, 22:45:56 »

There was another interesting DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) story tucked away in Modern Railways. A piece about Chiltern (p9) looking at loco haulage, which said that they're finding it difficult to finance new DMUs, partly because of the scarcity of finance, but also because "financiers are wary of putting money into new diesel trains with a 30-year life due to uncertainties surrounding the oil supply".

Perhaps someone should tell DfT» (Department for Transport - about).
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #403 on: November 28, 2010, 09:48:51 »

I haven't read through this massive thread, but the rumours that the replacement to the HST (High Speed Train)'s *could* be 5-car Voyager like trains doesn't sound good.  I thought lessons would have been learnt after the fiasco of using those 4 or 5 car Voyagers on the long distance cross country routes where the trains are usually packed out.  Longer trains are needed.   With expected further growth in train passengers this decade, running 4/5 car trains on Intercity route is not a good idea.  And please let's hope these new trains have decent comfortable seating including seats that line up with the windows!  Here is a good example of what comfortable seating SHOULD be like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRIMre6BKos

It is very early days as yet, but if other new trains are anything to go by, we will end up with some variety of 4/5 car multiple unit, with high density bus seats, minimal luggage space,and no buffet.
In theory multiple units are a good idea on account of the flexible train lengths. In practice though any seasoned and cynical traveller will know that flexible=shorter. Remember the adelantes ? flexible train length indeed, but normally 5 car replacing an HST.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10095


View Profile
« Reply #404 on: November 28, 2010, 09:51:16 »

Logically Crossrail should go out to Reading and given that they need to shave ^1bn off the bill to meet the government's new price target, not building stabling sidings at Maidenhead would certainly help. Since they aren't starting electrification just yet, there is time to thrash all this out.

Yes, can someone please announce that!  I thought it might have been included in Thursday's announcement given that electrification of Reading station was approved.  It is just such a logical thing to do given the passenger flows in the area!
Logged

To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 ... 25 26 [27] 28 29 ... 176
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page