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Author Topic: Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion  (Read 683147 times)
Electric train
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« Reply #780 on: October 11, 2012, 09:17:58 pm »

Roughly a year until actual physical work will start and bright green marking have been sprayed trackside for most of the route between Didcot and Reading.  They look about the right distance apart to be locations for the catenary masts.

They will be using driven steel piles so will go in quite quick, the structures could on top straight away.  There is a push to get started, DfT find it embarrassing when NR are efficient  Grin
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Mark Carne 26 June 2015 - "The challenges of delivering myriad improvement projects while still running a railway seven days a week were simply overwhelming".
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« Reply #781 on: October 14, 2012, 08:36:19 pm »

I read somewhere about rumours that the government was going to accelerate many infrastructure projects, including linked to the railways (and this electrification - both start date and pace) to give a boost to the economy from more construction jobs (whilst still avoiding calling it a plan b).
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anthony215
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« Reply #782 on: October 14, 2012, 08:40:30 pm »

I read somewhere about rumours that the government was going to accelerate many infrastructure projects, including linked to the railways (and this electrification - both start date and pace) to give a boost to the economy from more construction jobs (whilst still avoiding calling it a plan b).

Well they need to speed up the contstruction of the 2 high output trains which Network rail are going to use to speed up the electrification projects.

The government should also in my opinion hurry up and order some new emu's are its is looking very likely that there are not going to be enough emu's to cover all these newly electrified routes especially since they still have signed the thameslink contract.

I suppose Northern could use thoe class 317's that are in storage but I think new emu's will be needed for the Great Western especially since you have not chance of fitting a class 319 down the  branches to Marlow and Henley On Thames.
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #783 on: October 14, 2012, 08:46:44 pm »

According to the latest CP4 enhancements plans (updated this month) the electrification train will be constructed by next April, but not in use until October:

High output base Construction complete/available for use April 2013
Consist 1 Piling system available for use October 2013
Consist 2 Structures system available for use November 2013
Consist 3 Wiring system available for use March 2014


Regarding new EMUs, the new franchisee will be responsible for their procurement in whatever form that takes surely?
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« Reply #784 on: October 14, 2012, 09:06:27 pm »

Regarding new EMUs, the new franchisee will be responsible for their procurement in whatever form that takes surely?
Unless there is too much of a delay to the franchising process hopefully the new TOC will be able to procure the new EMUs. An possibility which is looking increasingly likely is the North West scheme being finished but no EMUs being available. 319s being released are dependant on the delivery of new Thameslink EMUs, which is suffering delays.
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Electric train
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« Reply #785 on: October 14, 2012, 10:04:52 pm »

The EMU's for the Thames Valley area it would make sense to ensure they had some compatibility with Crossrail units.

In general the GW electrification is on time, there are a few project issues which is not surprising given it's complexity, the Government could push for acceleration it will come at a larger price tag the existing program was designed to a price agreed with DfT
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Mark Carne 26 June 2015 - "The challenges of delivering myriad improvement projects while still running a railway seven days a week were simply overwhelming".
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« Reply #786 on: November 15, 2012, 08:47:24 pm »

I saw this on Twitter earlier from Modern Railways:

"With 319s overcommitted, Southern is ordering more EMUs and now we hear DfT to order 125mph EMUs for Oxford - double-price Desiros, anyone?"

Anyone know any more and given how long it is taking to sign the Thameslink train contract with Siemens there is a good chance that the infrastructure will be ready but we will have no electric trains available:-)
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Electric train
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« Reply #787 on: November 15, 2012, 09:46:47 pm »

I saw this on Twitter earlier from Modern Railways:

"With 319s overcommitted, Southern is ordering more EMUs and now we hear DfT to order 125mph EMUs for Oxford - double-price Desiros, anyone?"

The GWML electrification and Crossrail is being gauged to W12 and the GWML will be intermodal all of which mean double deck trains are a potential!!!

Anyone know any more and given how long it is taking to sign the Thameslink train contract with Siemens there is a good chance that the infrastructure will be ready but we will have no electric trains available:-)

  Thameslink on the other had just about clears W6 gauge.

I have heard from a very reliable source that the use of 313's is being investigated for the services off of the ECML through to the South when the link between the ECML and Thameslink is commissioned
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Mark Carne 26 June 2015 - "The challenges of delivering myriad improvement projects while still running a railway seven days a week were simply overwhelming".
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« Reply #788 on: November 15, 2012, 11:32:08 pm »

The 40 vehicles ordered today (8x5) will be delivered in Dec 14. I'm guessing that they will enable 8 Class 319's to be cascaded to the North West to avoid the embarrassing position whereby the second stage of electrification there is completed with no rolling stock to utilise it.

But clearly the even more embarrassing prospect is looming whereby GW electrification is completed to Oxford with no stock available, hence the first steps to procurement of a larger tranche of EMUs. Given that there is now much more electrification envisaged up to 2019 now, this makes sense, as the 319s will then find alternative uses once they become available.

Another possibility is that the govt is hedging its bets against the Siemens deal collapsing in which case some more conventional emus would be helpful as a stop gap measure.

I'd be surprised if 313's are being considered for Thameslink work. They'll be over 40 years old, have a maximum speed of 75, are only 3 coaches in length, and would not be at all suitable for the GN outer suburban services that are envisaged to run onto Thameslink.  (Not sure how many, if any, of the inner suburban Moorgate services are expected to switch to the Thameslink route.)
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paul7755
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« Reply #789 on: November 16, 2012, 09:26:56 am »

The GWML electrification and Crossrail is being gauged to W12 and the GWML will be intermodal all of which mean double deck trains are a potential!!!

Sorry, there's a bit of confusion there.  'Intermodal' simply describes the concept of freight containers (in fact any goods) that can be transported flexibly by sea, on rail, and on lorries during differnt parts of their journey.   Therefore the GW is already an intermodal route, but not yet at UK gauge W12 throughout.   

(But then are you thinking of the system where containers complete with road trailers are carried on rail wagons?  That cannot be done in any UK gauge either.)

Anyway, UK W10 and W12 gauges still do not allow for continental style double decker (DD) passenger trains either, their overall heights are only a few cm more than C1/C3 carriage gauge, the difference is all to do with opening out curved structures to allow for the corners of the containers, and the ensuing sway of the container outside its normal envelope. Network Rail include a diagram of the relative sizes of the different gauge profiles in most of the RUS documents, it's in Appendix A of the Freight RUS for instance:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/rus%20documents/route%20utilisation%20strategies/freight/freight%20rus.pdf

...you'll see there that W12 provides no greater height than W10, it is a slight width gain only and certainly not the solution you seem to think it is.  In fact W12 as can be seen provides no height improvement over the original W6...

To allow for DD trains a route needs to be completely rebuilt to UIC/TSI GB, GB+ or GC, and in the UK this would also require a massive amount of work to the infrastructure below the solebar, in particular thousands of platforms would have to be cut back and lowered, and many girder bridge structures would require modification.

PS Crossrail is explicitly not being built to allow for DD trains - it will always remain a barrier, and as it will be providing the majority of the suburban services in the future on either side ot the tunnel - I think you can foresee no change to any remaining non-Crossrail services.

Paul
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 09:43:11 am by paul7755 » Logged
IndustryInsider
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« Reply #790 on: November 16, 2012, 10:35:56 am »

I saw this on Twitter earlier from Modern Railways:

"With 319s overcommitted, Southern is ordering more EMUs and now we hear DfT to order 125mph EMUs for Oxford - double-price Desiros, anyone?"

It would make sense in terms of uniform timings to have a fleet of 125mph EMUs operate the fast Oxford to London services that aren't to be operated by IEPs.  They could also potentially operate the Newbury to London services after electrification.  Looking forward to reading an official announcement about this if it's true!
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« Reply #791 on: November 16, 2012, 10:47:01 am »

Hitachi 395s (aka Javelins) perhaps? 

They are basically operated as 125 mph units (although capable of 140 mph).  Much commonality with electric IEPs, but with a commuter door layout for a stopping service.

Paul
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Electric train
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« Reply #792 on: November 16, 2012, 06:27:24 pm »

The GWML electrification and Crossrail is being gauged to W12 and the GWML will be intermodal all of which mean double deck trains are a potential!!!

Sorry, there's a bit of confusion there.  'Intermodal' simply describes the concept of freight containers (in fact any goods) that can be transported flexibly by sea, on rail, and on lorries during differnt parts of their journey.   Therefore the GW is already an intermodal route, but not yet at UK gauge W12 throughout.   
Opps sorry meant interoperable, to the extent that the existing 12 miles of GW electrification is going to be re-registered to accommodate the additional clearances and continental types of pantographs.  Crossrail is being gauged for double deck trains

None of the GN suburban's are planned to go Thameslink, the 313 option is being looked at as a "Plan B" and likely for driver route knowledge from mid to late 2015 when the ECML - Thameslink connection will be available
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Mark Carne 26 June 2015 - "The challenges of delivering myriad improvement projects while still running a railway seven days a week were simply overwhelming".
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« Reply #793 on: November 16, 2012, 07:16:51 pm »

I wonder with the recent order of additional electrostars for Southern could we see some class 377's being subleased to FGW (or whoever is operating the GW franchise) come 2016 if the new Thameslink units are only just entering service.
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Electric train
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« Reply #794 on: November 16, 2012, 08:50:46 pm »

The Thameslink timetable change is set for December 2018 with the 24 trains per hour through the core.

In many ways it would make sense (although this is in short supply in the railways nowadays) for the GW TV trains to be a version of the Crossrail trains so there is some compatibility should there ever be the need to rescue each other
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Mark Carne 26 June 2015 - "The challenges of delivering myriad improvement projects while still running a railway seven days a week were simply overwhelming".
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