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Author Topic: Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion  (Read 791970 times)
BerkshireBugsy
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« Reply #990 on: September 24, 2014, 07:50:22 am »

I suspect that it was a steel pile they are about 600 to 750mm in diameter come in 5m lengths often one is driven in and a second or even a third is attached to the top and then that driven in.  They have a number of bosses for bolting each other together of for attaching the OLE structure base plate to.

I've seen quite a few of those "tubes" in the ground from London to Reading but most of them are buried quite deep. What I find curious if that they don't appear to be spaced evenly and there seem to be some gaps where it seems there should be a support but isn't. Could this be because in some locations they are more difficult to install than others ?
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« Reply #991 on: September 24, 2014, 09:11:39 am »

I suspect that it was a steel pile they are about 600 to 750mm in diameter come in 5m lengths often one is driven in and a second or even a third is attached to the top and then that driven in.  They have a number of bosses for bolting each other together of for attaching the OLE structure base plate to.
Yes that would be them and there were some other piles laying nearby so that would make complete sense.
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #992 on: September 24, 2014, 09:13:59 am »

I think I saw a fair number of these 5m piles, er, piled up in Swindon the other week.

I too am surprised by the apparently patchy nature of operations. Most extremely there seems to be something going between Bath and Box Tunnel, with scaffolding barriers put up at roughly the right intervals.
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« Reply #993 on: September 24, 2014, 10:37:53 am »

I too am surprised by the apparently patchy nature of operations. Most extremely there seems to be something going between Bath and Box Tunnel, with scaffolding barriers put up at roughly the right intervals.

That'll be so the foundation trenches can be dug.  Safety barriers are out up if they're close to the track.
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« Reply #994 on: September 24, 2014, 10:58:45 am »

Apologies if this has been asked before but are there any elements of the Electrification Program that require planning permission? I'm guessing that since Brunel first installed the railway planning rules may have changed a bit!
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bignosemac
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« Reply #995 on: September 24, 2014, 11:17:48 am »

Network Rail is, generally, exempt from planning permission regs on it's own land. However they do consult with local authorities and bodies such as English Heritage, Cadw in Wales, and Historic Scotland.

I've no doubt that specific sites of historic importance on the GWML, such as Maidenhead Bridge, Wharncliffe Viaduct, Box Tunnel and Sydney Gardens in Bath have been given careful consideration.
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paul7755
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« Reply #996 on: September 24, 2014, 11:23:03 am »

Apologies if this has been asked before but are there any elements of the Electrification Program that require planning permission? I'm guessing that since Brunel first installed the railway planning rules may have changed a bit!

In general, they use something called 'permitted development rights' within the railway's existing boundaries.  in principle, the original Acts setting up the railway allow for maintenance and modifications connected to operation of the railway, in perpetuity.

Listed building consent is also then required for modifications to some structures.  As a broad generalisation they do not have to get permission for the overall concept of wiring, they just inform local authorities they are doing it, and explain how they are meeting requirements for important buildings...

Paul
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paul7755
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« Reply #997 on: September 24, 2014, 11:44:26 am »

I've seen quite a few of those "tubes" in the ground from London to Reading but most of them are buried quite deep. What I find curious if that they don't appear to be spaced evenly and there seem to be some gaps where it seems there should be a support but isn't. Could this be because in some locations they are more difficult to install than others ?

From what I've read of the HOPS train, it includes a number of piling rigs, of different types that can operate separately, one of which is for very hard or difficult ground.   It would make sense to bomb along with the lighter equipment putting in the standard tubular piles and if a first attempt showed up difficult ground, then mark the location and leave it to the specialist rig coming later.

Another benefit of the type of piles chosen, with the flange mounted threaded holes, is that there's a transition plate from pile to mast that allows for verticality adjustment, meaning that within reason the piles don't have to be exactly plumb.  The same piles are used for many recent signal post installations, and even the massive signal gantries at Reading...

Paul
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BerkshireBugsy
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« Reply #998 on: September 24, 2014, 11:45:42 am »

I've seen quite a few of those "tubes" in the ground from London to Reading but most of them are buried quite deep. What I find curious if that they don't appear to be spaced evenly and there seem to be some gaps where it seems there should be a support but isn't. Could this be because in some locations they are more difficult to install than others ?

From what I've read of the HOPS train, it includes a number of piling rigs, of different types that can operate separately, one of which is for very hard or difficult ground.   It would make sense to bomb along with the lighter equipment putting in the standard tubular piles and if a first attempt showed up difficult ground, then mark the location and leave it to the specialist rig coming later.

Another benefit of the type of piles chosen, with the flange mounted threaded holes, is that there's a transition plate from pile to mast that allows for verticality adjustment, meaning that within reason the piles don't have to be exactly plumb.  The same piles are used for many recent signal post installations, and even the massive signal gantries at Reading...

Paul

That makes perfect sense Paul - thanks
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #999 on: September 24, 2014, 01:29:24 pm »


Another benefit of the type of piles chosen, with the flange mounted threaded holes, is that there's a transition plate from pile to mast that allows for verticality adjustment, meaning that within reason the piles don't have to be exactly plumb.  The same piles are used for many recent signal post installations...


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« Reply #1000 on: September 24, 2014, 04:47:21 pm »

Apologies if this has been asked before but are there any elements of the Electrification Program that require planning permission? I'm guessing that since Brunel first installed the railway planning rules may have changed a bit!

In general, they use something called 'permitted development rights' within the railway's existing boundaries.  in principle, the original Acts setting up the railway allow for maintenance and modifications connected to operation of the railway, in perpetuity.

Listed building consent is also then required for modifications to some structures.  As a broad generalisation they do not have to get permission for the overall concept of wiring, they just inform local authorities they are doing it, and explain how they are meeting requirements for important buildings...

Paul

That is my understanding too.  They did need planning consent for a few things like new depots but for putting the wires up they generally do not need consent.
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paul7755
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« Reply #1001 on: September 24, 2014, 04:50:17 pm »

NR announce that Wantage Rd bridge will now not be closed during the works, the new bridge is to be built alongside it:
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Network Rail has confirmed that the A338 Wantage Road bridge will remain open for the majority of the improvements.

Network Rail is building a new, higher bridge across the railway line as part of its Great Western Electrification Programme. New, faster, quieter and cleaner trains will draw power from overhead lines and the extra height is needed to ensure clearance.

The road will not need to be closed, as the new bridge will be constructed alongside the existing one. Minor, short-term restrictions may be in place at times during the process but for the majority of the time traffic will flow normally.

Once the new bridge is complete the old bridge will be demolished. Work will start in within the next couple of months and the bridge will open next summer
http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/News-Releases/A338-Wantage-Road-will-stay-open-during-major-bridge-reconstruction-216d.aspx
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« Reply #1002 on: September 24, 2014, 07:16:36 pm »

Typical spacing of OLE structures on the GWML is 50 metres, (the ECML and MML it is 70 metres) there are several different diameter piles being used depending on the structure required, it is likely the train will go out with all the same size piles and thump them in where required and then come back a thump in another size on another visit.

I have never managed to work out the logic behind OLE civil's engineers  Grin
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stuving
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« Reply #1003 on: September 24, 2014, 07:45:35 pm »

Apologies if this has been asked before but are there any elements of the Electrification Program that require planning permission? I'm guessing that since Brunel first installed the railway planning rules may have changed a bit!

In general, they use something called 'permitted development rights' within the railway's existing boundaries.  in principle, the original Acts setting up the railway allow for maintenance and modifications connected to operation of the railway, in perpetuity.

Listed building consent is also then required for modifications to some structures.  As a broad generalisation they do not have to get permission for the overall concept of wiring, they just inform local authorities they are doing it, and explain how they are meeting requirements for important buildings...

Paul

The relevant planning law was posted here et seq.. Planning approval is required for lots of buildings, including all bridges, as they are not now possible as permitted development. However:
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A.2. The prior approval referred to in paragraph A.1 is not to be refused by the appropriate authority nor are conditions to be imposed unless they are satisfied that^
(a) the development (other than the provision of or works carried out to a dam) ought to be and could reasonably be carried out elsewhere on the land; or
(b) the design or external appearance of any building, bridge, aqueduct, pier or dam would injure the amenity of the neighbourhood and is reasonably capable of modification to avoid such injury.

So the first question is - is a portal or gantry a bridge? I guess that could only apply to signal gantries with a walkway and a ladder each end; arguably that's a footbridge (albeit not public). 

For OLE, it can't reasonably be built anywhere else, can it? But it's probably as well for NR that it does doesn't seem to be in that list, since the current design is - let's face it - pretty ugly. Certainly enough to "injure the amenity" of most places. Whether it is "reasonably capable of modification to avoid such injury" is debatable, but I do think that better-looking structures are possible.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 11:25:39 pm by stuving » Logged
TonyK
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« Reply #1004 on: September 24, 2014, 10:03:12 pm »

Whether it is "reasonably capable of modification to avoid such injury" is debatable, but I do think that better-looking structures are possible.

Define "reasonably", with an accountant present. Ornate faux-Victorian wrought ironwork would be nice, but massed-produced and simple will win the day. It may not win awards for aesthetic content, but who expects that on a railway? Even the bits normally regarded as pretty - semaphore signals spring to mind - doubtless had their detractors in their early days. Necessity will trump art every time, but some will see fairness of form in the new OLE.

As Spike Milligan put it: "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You can get it out with Optrex".
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