Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 22:15 28 Mar 2024
- Bus plunges off South Africa bridge, killing 45
* Easter getaways hit by travel disruption
- Where Baltimore bridge investigation goes now
- How do I renew my UK passport and what is the 10-year rule?
- Family anger at sentence on fatal crash driver, 19
- Easter travel warning as millions set to hit roads
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
28th Mar (1917)
Bideford, Westward Ho! and Appledore closed (link)

Train RunningCancelled
19:35 Exeter St Davids to London Paddington
20:54 Reading to Gatwick Airport
20:56 Worcester Foregate Street to London Paddington
21:30 Shalford to Reading
22:25 Bedwyn to Newbury
22:30 Gatwick Airport to Reading
22:47 Newbury to Bedwyn
Short Run
17:03 London Paddington to Penzance
18:03 London Paddington to Penzance
19:04 Paignton to London Paddington
20:03 London Paddington to Plymouth
21:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
22:10 Severn Beach to Bristol Temple Meads
23:04 Reading to Bedwyn
23:17 Bedwyn to Reading
Delayed
19:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
21:30 Gatwick Airport to Reading
21:45 Penzance to London Paddington
23:45 London Paddington to Penzance
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 28, 2024, 22:34:25 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[104] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[103] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[78] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[56] If not HS2 to Manchester, how will traffic be carried?
[41] Return of the BRUTE?
[25] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
 
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 176
  Print  
Author Topic: Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion  (Read 1046735 times)
bemmy
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 270



View Profile
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2009, 11:38:46 »

This is great news!

But how do you think will it affect direct London services which currently terminate just beyond the new electric lines i.e. Carmarthen, Bedwyn or Weston-super-Mare?

I can't see a diesel service running 'under-the-wires' just for these relatively short extensions to mainline services.
Why not? seeing as Virgin run diesel trains under the wires all the way from Birmingham to Glasgow.....  Roll Eyes
Logged
Wolvercote Wanderer
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 22


View Profile Email
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2009, 12:01:41 »

Why not? seeing as Virgin run diesel trains under the wires all the way from Birmingham to Glasgow.....  Roll Eyes

 Smiley Good point, well made!

Let's hope Virgin don't get their grubby mits on Greater Western or we could see the same.  *Shudder*
Logged
polonia
Jr. Member
**
Posts: 10


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2009, 12:08:15 »

The  paper on the DFT (Department for Transport) website seems to suggest that re-furbished (with air-con added) Thameslink stock will cascade to suburban lines out of Paddington (eventually inner-surbuban will be covered by cross-rail stock) when the Thameslink upgrade is finished and their new stock delivered. It then suggests turbos (expect presumably those still needed for the branch lines) would then be sent on to the Bristol area freeing up further units for transfer North.

I presume this means the FCC (First Capital Connect) Class 319s - which will be geetting on a bit by then and in serious need of an upgrade.

 
Logged
broadgage
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5398



View Profile
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2009, 12:18:08 »

Does "approved" actually mean that physical work will start ? Or does it mean that approval has been given for more meetings/assesments/commitess etc ?

I seem to remember crossrail being "approved" dozens of times, the first "approval" being perhaps 15 years ago.
And although the thameslink 2000 project has now started, I believe that it was so named because it was to be completed for the millenium !

Still it IS progress even if this only turns out to be only the first of many approvals.

My main concern though is with overcrowding in both the near and longer terms.
A natural cynic like me forsees even worse overcrowding in the near term since building new diesels cant be justified.
The electric trains cant run until the work is done, which is bound to take longer than expected.

Therefore FGW (First Great Western) have a splendid excuse to do nothing about crowding for say 10 years.

In the longer term, I would have my doubts as to how suitable the electric trains will be for inter city use.
What we need is full length loco hauled trains with seats facing accross tables, luggage space, ample leg room, and a proper buffet and restaurant.
What we will probably get is high density EMU (Electric Multiple Unit) outer-suburban train with bus seats, minimal luggage space and perhaps a trolley.

I have travelled on many routes that have suffered "total route modernisation" which normally means shorter less comfortable trains with reduced luggage space and no catering.

My local service ( catford loop line) was downgraded from 8 car trains to 6 car because "the new trains have plenty of standing room"

Waterloo to Exeter services were downgraded from full length locohauled trains to short DMUs (Diesel Multiple Unit) with no buffet, cramped mainly bus seats, and space for only 1 cycle. Complaints about overcrowding being answered by advising passengers to allways book a seat.

Waterloo to Bournmouth services have been downgraded from proper intercity electric trains (the Wessex electrics) to suburban trains quite unsuited to long trips.

Whilst we will no doubt be promised that it will be different this time, previous "improvements do not fill me with confidence.
Logged

A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
paul7575
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5316


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2009, 12:19:53 »

It then suggests turbos (expect presumably those still needed for the branch lines) would then be sent on to the Bristol area freeing up further units for transfer North.

I presume this means the FCC (First Capital Connect) Class 319s - which will be geetting on a bit by then and in serious need of an upgrade.

And of course as we know from previous discussions, in railway speak (and timetables) the 'Bristol Area' extends to Portsmouth and Cardiff.  Huh

The 319s are about 20 years old now (half life?),  so a major rebuild including totally new seating and aircon on completion of their time with Thameslink would give them another 10-15 years easily.  Also AIUI (as I understand it) the first Thameslink new trains arrive in 2012, so there might be time to have an initial batch in the works before they're needed in the Thames Valley?

What I find interesting is the turn round all of a sudden, everyone is now talking about EMU (Electric Multiple Unit) cascades all over the place, for instance outside the FGW (First Great Western) area they are now suggesting LM (London Midland - recent franchise) 350s being used by TPX on Manchester - Scotland vice 185s for instance. Remarkable stuff...

Paul
Logged
RailCornwall
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 642


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2009, 12:24:51 »

I presume that the IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) order for the GWML (Great Western Main Line) will now be almost exclusively the hybrid variant, so once in the electrification area that it'll run on AC whilst outside Diesel traction will be used.

Logged
paul7575
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5316


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2009, 12:25:54 »

Waterloo to Exeter services were downgraded from full length locohauled trains to short DMUs (Diesel Multiple Unit) with no buffet, cramped mainly bus seats, and space for only 1 cycle. Complaints about overcrowding being answered by advising passengers to allways book a seat.

Waterloo to Bournmouth services have been downgraded from proper intercity electric trains (the Wessex electrics) to suburban trains quite unsuited to long trips.


A bit of exaggeration there surely? The Salisbury line now sees trains of up to 9 or 10 coaches in the peaks, and the 158/159 'bus seating' is the same as in the Wessies, with plenty of tables throughout. I'm not sure about bikes, but I definitely see more than one in each unit on occasions, since the original bike store was removed...

Paul
Logged
paul7575
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 5316


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2009, 12:31:06 »

I presume that the IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) order for the GWML (Great Western Main Line) will now be almost exclusively the hybrid variant, so once in the electrification area that it'll run on AC whilst outside Diesel traction will be used.


No, they say it will be mostly all electric for the main lines, with some 'bi-mode' for routes beyond. 

Bi-mode is how they refer to the dual powered diesel and electric. The 'full diesel' IEP still has hybrid power packs, the term refers to regeneration into a battery bank, like the Hayabusa trial PC for the measurement train.

Paul
Logged
devon_metro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5175



View Profile
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2009, 13:04:35 »

It does seem a bit shorted to not go as far as Bedwyn. Also, i'd be interested to know how Weston and the very busy line to the West Country is to be served?
Logged
Electric train
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 4356


The future is 25000 Volts AC 750V DC has its place


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2009, 14:29:37 »

I can possibly see unit like the Hitachi ones on HS1 (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) being used eventually on the GWML (Great Western Main Line) to Bristol and Cardiff, the GWML has a number of places where +125 running is feasible.  The problem with the 319's they are 20 years old now by the time electrifcation is inplace on the GWML outer suburban the units will be closer to 30 years old, I wounder if DfT» (Department for Transport - about) mean the 321's

Logged

Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
inspector_blakey
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3574



View Profile
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2009, 14:31:26 »

Here's something that's annoying me...

GWML (Great Western Main Line) electrification reported on the Guardian (top billing when I looked a few minutes ago) and BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) sites this morning, along no doubt with many others.  Great news! And these are two news organizations that I have a great deal of time and respect for. But how does the BBC report it? "Minimum rail disruption pledged". The media seem to be focusing on the temporary disruption that will be caused by stringing up the knitting rather than the huge benefits this will ring long into the future. The Guardian also manages to put a negative slant on things with the sub-headline "Network Rail to transform Britain's busiest rail route, causing four years of disruption for passengers" underneath the electrification headline on the UK (United Kingdom) front page.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8164942.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jul/23/electric-rail-line-great-western

Honestly.
Logged
inspector_blakey
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3574



View Profile
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2009, 14:35:24 »

It does seem a bit shorted to not go as far as Bedwyn. Also, i'd be interested to know how Weston and the very busy line to the West Country is to be served?

Fairly obviously, I would have thought, by diesels. Presumably any services to Exeter/Plymouth/Penzance running via the Berks and Hants will have to be diesel throughout, although it does rather raise the prospect of diesel trains running all the way under the wires to Bristol on West Country services that take the "Great Way Round". Sadly I don't suppose there's much chance of a sudden outbreak of common sense involving loco-hauled stock changing from diesel to electric traction at suitable locations.
Logged
willc
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 2330


View Profile
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2009, 14:39:52 »

Well after all the problems caused by WCML (West Coast Main Line) modernisation, it's perhaps not unreasonable to expect a smidgen of disruption.

As for the stock, the DafT report makes it pretty clear that the 319s - and I'm sure that's what they mean, will be given a good going over - presumably on the scale of the HST (High Speed Train) refresh - and get air-conditioning which sounds a hell of a lot better than the old 1950s Great Eastern suburban units that were the first electric trains seen in West Yorkshire when the Aire Valley was electrified.

And the IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) is an intercity train - if it ever gets built.

I was rather tickled by DafT's description of the Turbo fleet as 'modern' dmus. And no mention of them getting any refit, over and above FGW (First Great Western)'s current proposals for the fleet
Logged
ReWind
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 341


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2009, 15:00:27 »

It does seem a bit shorted to not go as far as Bedwyn. Also, i'd be interested to know how Weston and the very busy line to the West Country is to be served?

Fairly obviously, I would have thought, by diesels. Presumably any services to Exeter/Plymouth/Penzance running via the Berks and Hants will have to be diesel throughout, although it does rather raise the prospect of diesel trains running all the way under the wires to Bristol on West Country services that take the "Great Way Round". Sadly I don't suppose there's much chance of a sudden outbreak of common sense involving loco-hauled stock changing from diesel to electric traction at suitable locations.

Sadly, yes!  I suspect Penzance/Plymouth to Bristol FGW (First Great Western) services are going to stay HST (High Speed Train), then there will be a change of train at BRI» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains), onto electric, for onward stations to London  I doubt many people travel from Cornwall/Devon to London via Bristol anyway, when there are faster services to the B&H (Berks and Hants - railway line from Reading to Taunton via Westbury).

Also, I belive London - Cheltenham services will become London - Swindon sevices electric, then Swindon - Cheltenham on a west unit.  Same applies for WSM, where it will be London - Bri electric, then a west unit to WSM/TAu.
Logged

Here, there and Everywhere!!
tramway
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 617



View Profile
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2009, 15:38:58 »

I presume that the IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) order for the GWML (Great Western Main Line) will now be almost exclusively the hybrid variant, so once in the electrification area that it'll run on AC whilst outside Diesel traction will be used.


Are you sure it would work out like that. There a currently many London Bristol/Swansea terminators that would be ok as pure electric, probably requiring only a limited stock of hybrids for the extended diagrams.

And voyagers are going to be with us for quite a while yet whatever the Evening Post has to say.

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/homepage/Bristol-London-line-electrified/article-1189000-detail/article.html

In fact I would bet that there will still be a requirement for the full diesel version as the benifits to be gained for having part electric on both the B&H (Berks and Hants - railway line from Reading to Taunton via Westbury) and beyond Bristol probably don't add up.

Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 176
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page