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Author Topic: Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion  (Read 706544 times)
Tim
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« Reply #120 on: August 21, 2009, 05:01:52 pm »

The best thing about Adonis's plan is that he has linked electrification to rolling stock replacement and cascading which noone in power has done for a long time.  If you electrify a route run by clapped out desiels which would otherwise need to be replaced by very costly desiels rather than cheaper electric trains then your business case for electrification looks much better.  He has also been very clever or lucky with fitting the timing to the release of Thameslink EMUs

GWML, then MML then cross country makes a lot of sense (with some fill-in and shorter routes alongside,  Ie Manchester-Preston and one of more of the Transpennine routes)   Scottish local electrification may stack up as might the valley lines in Wales but I am not convinced by taking the wires to Aberdeen or Inverness - both comparatively small places.     
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« Reply #121 on: August 22, 2009, 09:28:56 am »

The NR business case for electrification put the MML ahead of the GWML.  The GWML came out ahead by DfT due to the rolling stock on the GWML needing replacement, the cascade of the old Thameslink stock and that much of the re-signaling is planed to be replace as part of Crossrail, Reading remodeling and programed renewals.   

Also despite the views of some about the difficulties of Severn Tunnel and Bath area there are very few major civil obstacles or complex junction on the GWML, even these are not that complex compared to some locations where tunnels have had to be re-bored etc
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bignosemac
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« Reply #122 on: August 22, 2009, 10:07:32 am »

The GWML rolling stock (presumably you mean the venerable 43s and Mk3s) may well need replacing, but what odds some of it turns up elsewhere on the network before being consigned to history? CrossCountry - or Cinderella if you prefer! - would be favourite, as well as existing and new 'Open Access' operators. Maybe ATW and Scotrail, or their sucessors, could find a use for some of 'em.
Or, strategic reserve anyone?
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Tim
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« Reply #123 on: August 24, 2009, 12:47:46 am »

The GWML rolling stock (presumably you mean the venerable 43s and Mk3s) may well need replacing, but what odds some of it turns up elsewhere on the network before being consigned to history? CrossCountry - or Cinderella if you prefer! - would be favourite, as well as existing and new 'Open Access' operators. Maybe ATW and Scotrail, or their sucessors, could find a use for some of 'em.
Or, strategic reserve anyone?

I'd hope that the MML is electrified too before too long and that XC gets their old Meridians.
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anthony215
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« Reply #124 on: August 24, 2009, 10:07:14 am »

I believe that some hsts will be going to crosscountry once they are withdrawn by FGW. It is expected that the Midland Mainline between Bedford & Sheffield will be electrified after the great western together with the crosscountry route between Bristol & Birmingham menaing that some crosscountry services from bristol will be able to be worked by electric trains.

It is expected that the following routes will be electrified in time:

Great western Mainline ( London - Swansea & London - Exeter St Davids Via Bristol & Westbury) - FGW are pushing for the wires to be put all of the way to exeter.

Midland Mainline ( Bedord - Sheffield)

Bristol - Birmingham New St ( Meaning that is the gw is electrified to exter then all the Exeter - Manchester services can be worked by emu's)

Cardiff Valley Lines

North Wales coast

Wrexham - Bidston

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Tim
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« Reply #125 on: August 24, 2009, 10:46:31 am »

Great western Mainline ( London - Swansea & London - Exeter St Davids Via Bristol & Westbury) - FGW are pushing for the wires to be put all of the way to exeter.

Well done first (their franchise will end before electrification so they don't have to do this)

Does anyone know the rational for only wiring to Newbury.  More Turbos terminate at Bedwin (only about 10 miles further).  Wiring to there would mean getting rid of teh turbos completely.
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vacman
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« Reply #126 on: August 24, 2009, 01:00:54 pm »

Great western Mainline ( London - Swansea & London - Exeter St Davids Via Bristol & Westbury) - FGW are pushing for the wires to be put all of the way to exeter.

Well done first (their franchise will end before electrification so they don't have to do this)

Does anyone know the rational for only wiring to Newbury.  More Turbos terminate at Bedwin (only about 10 miles further).  Wiring to there would mean getting rid of teh turbos completely.
To be honest, they may aswell wire to Westbury then Westbury-Bath, the Bedwyn services could then continue to westbury (to cover Pewsey), then westbury-cardiff Stoppers could be EMU's and also gives a diversionary route for padd-bristol.
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Tim
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« Reply #127 on: August 24, 2009, 01:58:26 pm »

Great western Mainline ( London - Swansea & London - Exeter St Davids Via Bristol & Westbury) - FGW are pushing for the wires to be put all of the way to exeter.

Well done first (their franchise will end before electrification so they don't have to do this)

Does anyone know the rational for only wiring to Newbury.  More Turbos terminate at Bedwin (only about 10 miles further).  Wiring to there would mean getting rid of teh turbos completely.
To be honest, they may aswell wire to Westbury then Westbury-Bath, the Bedwyn services could then continue to westbury (to cover Pewsey), then westbury-cardiff Stoppers could be EMU's and also gives a diversionary route for padd-bristol.

You are absolutely right.  I guess these  things need to be done one step at a time through and getting rid of teh TV turbos by taking the wires to Bedwin or Pewsey would seem a sensible first step.  Then take the wires to cardiff and Pompy when the cascaded turbos on those routes are due to be scrapped.

My fear is that they will decide that stopping the wires at Newbury will be an excuse to buy loads of expensive bi-mode IEP trains.  I'd much rather that we had a few years of a few deisels under the wires than bi-mode trains cos once they are delivered they will be arround for 40 years and act as a disincentive to expand electrification duringtheir life.
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« Reply #128 on: August 24, 2009, 06:17:18 pm »

Does anyone know the rational for only wiring to Newbury.  More Turbos terminate at Bedwin (only about 10 miles further).  Wiring to there would mean getting rid of teh turbos completely.

A couple of reasons, between Newbury and Bedwin is the boundary between Reading PSB and Westbury PSB to extend past this boundary will require immunisation of signaling and telecoms at Westbury Box, to go past Newbury would need another grid site, the GWML will have one at Old Oak Common the next will be at Didcot going past Newbury will go beyond the feed limit.  Once the Reading remodeling is complete I suspect there will be a change to the service pattern on the Berks n Hants irrespective of electrification.
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« Reply #129 on: August 24, 2009, 06:23:59 pm »

Does anyone know the rational for only wiring to Newbury.  More Turbos terminate at Bedwin (only about 10 miles further).  Wiring to there would mean getting rid of teh turbos completely.

A couple of reasons, between Newbury and Bedwin is the boundary between Reading PSB and Westbury PSB to extend past this boundary will require immunisation of signaling and telecoms at Westbury Box, to go past Newbury would need another grid site, the GWML will have one at Old Oak Common the next will be at Didcot going past Newbury will go beyond the feed limit.  Once the Reading remodeling is complete I suspect there will be a change to the service pattern on the Berks n Hants irrespective of electrification.

I was under the impression that Reading had control until just east of Lavington.
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Tim
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« Reply #130 on: August 24, 2009, 06:36:25 pm »

Does anyone know the rational for only wiring to Newbury.  More Turbos terminate at Bedwin (only about 10 miles further).  Wiring to there would mean getting rid of teh turbos completely.

A couple of reasons, between Newbury and Bedwin is the boundary between Reading PSB and Westbury PSB to extend past this boundary will require immunisation of signaling and telecoms at Westbury Box, to go past Newbury would need another grid site, the GWML will have one at Old Oak Common the next will be at Didcot going past Newbury will go beyond the feed limit.  Once the Reading remodeling is complete I suspect there will be a change to the service pattern on the Berks n Hants irrespective of electrification.

Thanks for the explanation.  I am glad that it has all be thought about and reassured that there is a sensible engineering rather than political or penny-pinching explanation.
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Btline
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« Reply #131 on: August 28, 2009, 10:38:26 pm »

My fear is that they will decide that stopping the wires at Newbury will be an excuse to buy loads of expensive bi-mode IEP trains.  I'd much rather that we had a few years of a few deisels under the wires than bi-mode trains cos once they are delivered they will be arround for 40 years and act as a disincentive to expand electrification duringtheir life.

I fear the same. Also note the ECML, and the fact that bi mods will be used on services beyond Leeds and Edinburgh.
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bignosemac
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« Reply #132 on: August 28, 2009, 10:59:41 pm »

One important factor missing from this debate is the role of freight. A lack of infill electrification is a major hindrence to FOCs moving away from diesel haulage. It's no surprise that no new electric freight locos have been built since the introduction of the Class 92s in the early 1990s. Electrification that solely benefits passenger operations will cause major pathing issues for FOCs with their reliance on diesel traction.
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« Reply #133 on: August 29, 2009, 07:46:05 am »

One important factor missing from this debate is the role of freight. A lack of infill electrification is a major hindrence to FOCs moving away from diesel haulage. It's no surprise that no new electric freight locos have been built since the introduction of the Class 92s in the early 1990s. Electrification that solely benefits passenger operations will cause major pathing issues for FOCs with their reliance on diesel traction.
The former chairman and owners of EWS (possibly the largest of the FOC's) had a policy of diesel traction, DB Schenker may have a different view after all the FOC's need to make their case and a commitment to use electrification, which I am sure they will.
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paul7755
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« Reply #134 on: August 29, 2009, 03:16:30 pm »

My fear is that they will decide that stopping the wires at Newbury will be an excuse to buy loads of expensive bi-mode IEP trains.  I'd much rather that we had a few years of a few deisels under the wires than bi-mode trains cos once they are delivered they will be arround for 40 years and act as a disincentive to expand electrification duringtheir life.

I fear the same. Also note the ECML, and the fact that bi mods will be used on services beyond Leeds and Edinburgh.

Although the whole train is correctly referred to as 'bi-mode', in fact 9 of the 10 cars (or 4 of the 5) are exactly the same build as the full electric version. So they don't have to be around for 40 years in the as delivered condition, as long as further electric end cars can be built.  I think it is important to remember that the diesel end isn't really a 'power car' like in an HST, it is just a generator car for the distributed traction on the rest of the train, ie it cannot move on its own.  Even the full diesel IEP is really an 8 car EMU, sandwiched between its two diesel generator cars.

Paul
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