Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[inspector_blakey]

Mr Hammond explained: ^I don^t think a full cost-benefit analysis was carried out before Lord Adonis made the announcement in the run-up to the election.

Presumably by "in the run up to the election" he means "almost a full year before the election". Clown. And I was under the distinct impression that the electrification plans had been based on a reasonably thorough analysis anyway.

[Electric train]

Mr Hammond explained: ^I don^t think a full cost-benefit analysis was carried out before Lord Adonis made the announcement in the run-up to the election.

Presumably by "in the run up to the election" he means "almost a full year before the election". Clown. And I was under the distinct impression that the electrification plans had been based on a reasonably thorough analysis anyway.

We^ve made it very clear that we^re not going to allow our approach to Network Rail to be driven by artificial accounting practices.

Surely he doesn't he mean the same type of accounting the John Major Government used when all of a sudden depreciation was allowed to be accounted for by BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) on its HST^▸ (High Speed Train) fleet, something BR had not previously been allowed to do despite asking the Government.

To the Torys the railways a like a rash they just can not resist scratching it until it bleeds

[woody]

This from another forum http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.railway/browse_thread/thread/bc2e6dd1b90f2e83#
"According to the latest issue of the Railway Magazine, the government
looks set to promote East Midlands electrification to the top of the
queue over GW^▸ (Great Western) electrification.

Apparently, confusion over HST^▸ (High Speed Train) replacement, the remodelling at Reading
and the simple fact that EM electrification would be a lot cheaper,
during a period of austerity, are the factors that appeal.

Surely, the Achilles heal of the GW, unlike other routes, is the way
everything fans out after Reading, then again after Swindon.

It^s all just too messy for politicians to get their heads round
because it^s not a line, more a whole series of lines."

[Btline]

Yeah - all the routes need o be done to make it worthwhile (except perhaps North of Oxford and Swindon).

If this is true, I hope it means the Meridians and HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) are displaced and sent to XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) asap and/or moved to the Liverpool - Norwich route.

[Electric train]

Surely, the Achilles heal of the GW^▸ (Great Western), unlike other routes, is the way
everything fans out after Reading, then again after Swindon.

It^s all just too messy for politicians to get their heads round
because it^s not a line, more a whole series of lines."

Or there are more Tory votes to secure in the Midlands than they are ever likely to get from South Wales, with Berks, Wilts, Oxon being blue through and through.

There was always a close run race within the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) team which route to tackle first, the priority was left to the Secretary of State obviously the new one has a different view

[smokey]

why not create jobs within england by developing hydrogen electric trains, not only for use within the uk but for export.... could be done in partnership with the motor industry to get the fuel delivery infrastucture in place

no need for wires, trains can go on any route well with no wires anyway, would help the environment cut down maintanace costs (less working parts), being alot lighter should cause less wear on rails... or am i just dreaming

hydrogen Electric cells use more power to convert to Hydrogen than you get back.

Hydrogen fuel cell cars running off a totaly renewable energy source is a very green option.

However Electric trains running of O/H wires far more green option.

[woody]

This from another forum http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.railway/browse_thread/thread/bc2e6dd1b90f2e83#




Surely, the Achilles heal of the GW^▸ (Great Western), unlike other routes, is the way
everything fans out after Reading, then again after Swindon.

I have always thought this myself.Maybe it time to start thinking the unthinkable if the Great Western is to eventually move foreward instead of sideways or even backwards as has been happening.Beeching proposed sending all West of England services via Bristol,this would have concentrated scarce resources(electrification for one)on one single route from Paddington to the west with the added benefit to X Country west of Bristol.Carrying on as we are is a road to nowhere.Austerity does have an up side as it forces us to face up to reality.Since the 1955 modernisation plan and through privatisation its been a case financially of "easy come easy go".Vast sums of public money have disappeared up the swannny instead of producing comprehensive modern electric railway.

[Btline]

(a) Is there capacity via Bristol?

(b) Can Exeter to London be achieved 2 hours or less via Bristol?

If the answer to (a) is no, then would it be worth it?. If the answer to (b) is no, then under no circumstances should services be diverted! Journey time is the single number one priority. The trains are slow enough as it is.

[Electric train]

The route to Exeter / Plymouth does not enter into the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) electrification, not in the current planning.  The crucial justification for GWML electrification is the outer TV services with the justification for going onto Bristol and South Wales being manly economies of scale and for South Wales a politically / socio-economic one as well.

The MML^» (Midland Main Line. - about) electrification is part done as far as Bedford, a new 400kV Grid site at Boreham Wood is being built as part of Thameslink it is an Auto Transformer system supply with the capability of feeding North.  There is no need to provide suburban rolling stock as this provided already by Thameslink so the only trains that are needed are those for intercity which compared to what FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would need is quite small, indeed some of MML services could make use of refurbished former Thameslink EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)'s there could be the potential of say a through Derby / Sheffield to Brighton service.

The MML also give the possibility of connections to the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) and WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) for diversions of these routes, the GWML is fairly isolated in that respect. 

[inspector_blakey]

Journey time is the single number one priority. The trains are slow enough as it is.

Btline, we're well aware that journey time is your single, number-one priority. Bear in mind though that there are a few people out there who may have different opinions every now and again though!

And whilst the trains are, debatably, already somewhat slow, that's largely caused by the limp through Devon and Cornwall stopping at many of the lamp-posts along the way. Electrification to Exeter won't do a great deal to speed that up, I would guess.

[matt473]

Journey time is more often than not the most important factor for commuters or people travelling for business. Comfort, scenery and a few other things are what are more important to leisure travellers. Given the nature of the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) there needs to be a balance between the two so speed is not the be all and end all

[Btline]

This is not about my priorities, as I live near nor use often, that line.

The prospects of speeding up the line in Devon and Cornwall look low, therefore the competitiveness of the route with planes and cars depends on 2 hr schedules to Exeter and then 1 hr to Plymouth. Therefore, I would argue that speed is a priority. Slap on an extra hour, and people can drive there quicker and cheaper. People are paying more for the speed.

And I would also argue that many leisure travellers would want fast journey times as well - e.g. holiday makers.

[JayMac]

Not everyone has a car as an alternative, so comparing the speed of one versus the other is irrelevant for them. Competing with air travel maybe relevant for some but not every part of the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) served area has easy access to an airport, and when you may need to take the train to get to the airport then it may make sense just to stay on the train.

[matt473]

And I would also argue that many leisure travellers would want fast journey times as well - e.g. holiday makers.

You need to look at how lines are advertised, and I'm pretty sure a major selling point of the South Western part of the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) is the scenic nature of it. That and for holiday makers, you'd be surprised how many view travelling as the biggest part of the fun of a holiday which is another reason why more tables are needed on long distance services but that's another topic. There is too much obsession with the railway today to shave off the od 10-15mins when it would be more beneficial to improve the overall experience (which would probably be cheaper to achieve as well in many areas)

[Electric train]

Heritage railways sell their routes on the scenic value the national network has to sell it self on ticket price, journey time, punctuality and reliability.

The judgment to electrify the MML^» (Midland Main Line. - about) over the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) is I suspect to do with the capping of replacement rolling stock for Thameslink, it was this stock that was going to be refrub'd and cascaded to the GW^▸ (Great Western) TV routes, defer GWML electrification the 165/6 have at least 10 or 15 years life HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s can be sweated for another 10, the 165/6's are getting augmented by Crossrail in 2017 thereby releasing capacity for outer TV services, even I dear say replace HST's on most of the Oxford and Cotswold services thereby releasing HST's for other services or to retire them.

Remember this Government is about austerity.