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Author Topic: Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion  (Read 706608 times)
Electric train
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« Reply #585 on: March 03, 2011, 06:53:39 am »

Optimistic thoughts of wires to Plymouth either of the route has not had any consideration, there has been not feasibility study or outline power supply study.

Doubt network rail would put wires along the dawlish seawall
Nothing like a challenge  Roll Eyes  With the right selection of equipment and perhaps a higher level of maintenance it is possible.
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Mark Carne 26 June 2015 - "The challenges of delivering myriad improvement projects while still running a railway seven days a week were simply overwhelming".
paul7755
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« Reply #586 on: March 03, 2011, 12:21:34 pm »

It was decided a while ago that the Crossrail Abbey Wood branch would be third rail to keep the costs down

I did recall a suggestion last year that they'd use DC to avoid rebuilding the Connaught Tunnel, but then discussions in other forums suggested this was during the 'silly season' where all sorts of scope reductions were being widely discussed - remember all the talk of cancelling Abbey Wood, or Maidenhead, or both?   

Eventually they announced that Crossrail would go ahead completely.

So I just asked Crossrail, and here's their reply:

Quote
Crossrail Ref: CLR-00-031177
 
Thank you for your enquiry dated 1st March  2011 which has been passed to me for attention.
 
25kV electrification wil be used for all Crossrail trains including the section to Abbey Wood. The Connaught Tunnel will be re-built to accommodate the larger clearance for the overhead line equipment.
 
It is probable that if the route was extended beyond Abbey Wood then the trains would still use 25kV overhead electirication as it would be uneconomic to have dual voltage trains for that section, however there are currently no plans to extend the route

Unless you know different.

Paul
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ZoŽ
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« Reply #587 on: March 03, 2011, 02:51:40 pm »

New installations of third rail are not allowed, only extensions of existing systems.
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paul7755
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« Reply #588 on: March 03, 2011, 04:07:41 pm »

New installations of third rail are not allowed, only extensions of existing systems.

Yes, but as 'extensions' are allowed to include such mileages as Basingstoke to Exeter, Southampton to Salisbury, or Reigate to Guildford, they have a lot of leeway in the matter. 

In any case, Crossrail's route through the Connaught Tunnel to Woolwich is as much a replacement of an existing third rail route as the ELL's extension between Shoreditch and Highbury was.  Another way of looking at it is as an extension of existing third rail from Abbey Wood towards Canary Wharf - which would also be allowed.

All in all I think the 'no new installations' excuse is irrelevant.

Paul
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ZoŽ
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« Reply #589 on: March 03, 2011, 04:13:14 pm »

Basingstoke to Exeter
I believe the NR plan for this route should it ever be electrified is to use 25 kV OHL.  By your arguments above it would be possible to electrify all of Great Britain with third rail as you could just keep extending it.  It seems the rules would only prevent you installing third rail on the Northern Ireland network.
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Electric train
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« Reply #590 on: March 03, 2011, 07:38:21 pm »

It was decided a while ago that the Crossrail Abbey Wood branch would be third rail to keep the costs down
I did recall a suggestion last year that they'd use DC to avoid rebuilding the Connaught Tunnel, but then discussions in other forums suggested this was during the 'silly season' where all sorts of scope reductions were being widely discussed - remember all the talk of cancelling Abbey Wood, or Maidenhead, or both?   
Eventually they announced that Crossrail would go ahead completely.
So I just asked Crossrail, and here's their reply:
Quote
Crossrail Ref: CLR-00-031177
Thank you for your enquiry dated 1st March  2011 which has been passed to me for attention.
25kV electrification wil be used for all Crossrail trains including the section to Abbey Wood. The Connaught Tunnel will be re-built to accommodate the larger clearance for the overhead line equipment.
It is probable that if the route was extended beyond Abbey Wood then the trains would still use 25kV overhead electirication as it would be uneconomic to have dual voltage trains for that section, however there are currently no plans to extend the route
Unless you know different.
Paul
Thanks for this Paul, I have not had much contact with the Crossrail Project team lately.

The "extension" of third rail is as said a bit open, but I believe the current philosophy is not to do major route where it does not meet another third rail line. A Basingstoke / Exeter electrification would be 25kV as it would likely to be cheaper, but North Downs line would be third rail but as these 2 routes are not even on the list to even think about who knows, as a point of interest the last great third rail extension Bournemouth / Weymouth is in need of enhancement also the power equipment is a poorer state than equipment elsewhere on the network twice its age.
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Mark Carne 26 June 2015 - "The challenges of delivering myriad improvement projects while still running a railway seven days a week were simply overwhelming".
paul7755
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« Reply #591 on: March 03, 2011, 08:28:13 pm »

The "extension" of third rail is as said a bit open, but I believe the current philosophy is not to do major route where it does not meet another third rail line. A Basingstoke / Exeter electrification would be 25kV as it would likely to be cheaper, but North Downs line would be third rail but as these 2 routes are not even on the list to even think about who knows...

Yes I'd agree Exeter would be AC and use dual voltage stock, but the main point is that it would be for cost reasons, not because third rail is banned.  The wording used in the electrification RUS was:

"In view of the route length and service density, AC electrification is considered likely to be the more cost effective option for this route. This would be further examined in the detailed development of a scheme."

Paul
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bignosemac
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« Reply #592 on: March 18, 2011, 01:10:54 am »

I'm wondering whether the recent sad events in Japan are likely to have any effect on the building of the new trains?

I'd imagine that Hitachi were in the process of re-tooling their factory to begin the new build. I'm sure the Japanese government want to get their industrial capacity back to full strength as quickly as possible, but would they not be concentrating on domestic production ahead of export orders?

Material, workers and resources are likely to be prioritised toward domestic rebuilding so this could have a knock on effect for the delivery date of the Super Expresses.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #593 on: March 18, 2011, 05:22:39 am »

I suspect power generation for factories is the first concern
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Tim
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« Reply #594 on: March 18, 2011, 09:04:27 am »

Hitachi's factopry is in Kasado which is to the south of Japan and not effected by the quake.   I work in the law and we have  a number of law firms we work which are based in Tokyo.  We have had a stream of rather moving emails and faxes this week saying that it is business as usual in Tokyo whcih is much closer to the distruction.  I suspect that all sectors of the economy are keen to carry on working as much as possible to keep the economy afloat.
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Electric train
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« Reply #595 on: March 18, 2011, 02:26:50 pm »

The earthquake, tsunami and the nuclear power plant disaster will effect Japan as a whole for a few weeks but this is a very well structured and wealthy country they will get the vast majority of their industry and commerce working very quickly
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Mark Carne 26 June 2015 - "The challenges of delivering myriad improvement projects while still running a railway seven days a week were simply overwhelming".
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« Reply #596 on: March 19, 2011, 01:05:07 am »

New installations of third rail are not allowed, only extensions of existing systems.
Why is this? I think that, on routes where IC stock would never venture, 3rd rail should be considered as it might be cheaper (though the stock would need to be dual-voltage to allow through running onto sections that would be shared by IC trains). It's not like 3rd rail shoes and pantographs weigh very much, or do they? 3rd rail might also be a better solution in rural areas as OHLE adds visual impact of a railway on anything scenic (though with photos I've seen of HS1 it's often more the light grey that breaks the countryside than the OHLE, using weathered balast might have helped).
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Don't DOO it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
Electric train
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« Reply #597 on: March 19, 2011, 07:53:19 am »

New installations of third rail are not allowed, only extensions of existing systems.
Why is this? I think that, on routes where IC stock would never venture, 3rd rail should be considered as it might be cheaper (though the stock would need to be dual-voltage to allow through running onto sections that would be shared by IC trains). It's not like 3rd rail shoes and pantographs weigh very much, or do they? 3rd rail might also be a better solution in rural areas as OHLE adds visual impact of a railway on anything scenic (though with photos I've seen of HS1 it's often more the light grey that breaks the countryside than the OHLE, using weathered balast might have helped).
This restriction on "new" exposed top contact third (and forth) rails systems put in place about 25 or 30 years ago by the Dept of Transport (as was) also for infrastructure owners like Network Rail they also have to consider the "The Electricity at Work 1989 Regulations" made under the 1974 HSW Act.  On the national network the option to use a shrouded bottom as used on the DLR is not a practical option.

All recent rolling stock is dual voltage its just that both collection systems are only fitted in areas where both are used.

Third rail infrastructure is not cheap as a member of the traveling public you only ever see the conrail or the OLE masts and wire which compared to con rail looks expensive, however 750v third rail needs a 2 to 4 MW substation very 4 miles and a track paralleling hut (TPH) in between in high density area the TPH's are often replaced with substations.  The substations have transformer rectifier units 2 to 4 MW some have two, high voltage switchgear 33kV and 750v dc switchgear, then there is the high voltage (33kV) cables between substations (we do not take the power direct from a nearby street 4 MW is a larger demand than most housing estates) where as 25kV OLE has a substation every 25 miles on the old systems but on the new systems like HS1 and the plan for GWML every 50 miles with track sectioning cabins every 7 miles. 
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Mark Carne 26 June 2015 - "The challenges of delivering myriad improvement projects while still running a railway seven days a week were simply overwhelming".
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« Reply #598 on: March 29, 2011, 08:45:57 pm »

Network Rail is seeking tenders for overhead line installation work for the GWML and North West projects.

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/Press-Releases/PLANS-TO-ROLL-OUT-ELECTRIFICATION-GATHER-PACE-16f8/SearchCategoryID-2.aspx
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anthony215
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« Reply #599 on: April 01, 2011, 05:56:10 pm »

David cameron has said that electrification to Swansea could happen:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2011/04/01/rail-electrification-to-swansea-still-being-considered-says-prime-minister-91466-28442719/

Hope it is true although i have my doubts
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