HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion

[whole diary]

[4064ReadingAbbey]

Even assuming that all these passengers change onto inbound Crossrail trains that’s still only two Crossrail trains' worth per hour. One can expect to double or triple that volume for the full ‘Y’-shaped HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) network - but that’s still only 6 trains full per hour. A certain percentage of the flow off HS2 will travel westbound from OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) as the User Benefit maps suggest so the eastbound loadings will be slightly lower than the numbers I gave above. It seems to me that even allowing for the expected loads from the western suburbs there will be room on Crossrail for passengers changing at Paddington on inward journeys. In the peak hours one does not necessarily expect a seat on the Tube so I don't to see why this should be a consideration on Crossrail. In any event Crossrail journeys through London will be quick so one will not have to stand for long: 4 minutes to Tottenham Court Road and 17 minutes to Canary Wharf.

The current method of making it into central London is to head for Paddington, then go for a nice wwalk with a few thousand other people to the tube. A change of platform at OOC is going to be so much easier.

As we are talking HS2 the area it covers is mainly passengers heading to Euston and not Paddington.

Even assuming that all these passengers change onto inbound Crossrail trains that’s still only two Crossrail trains' worth per hour. One can expect to double or triple that volume for the full ‘Y’-shaped HS2 network - but that’s still only 6 trains full per hour. A certain percentage of the flow off HS2 will travel westbound from OOC as the User Benefit maps suggest so the eastbound loadings will be slightly lower than the numbers I gave above. It seems to me that even allowing for the expected loads from the western suburbs there will be room on Crossrail for passengers changing at Paddington on inward journeys. In the peak hours one does not necessarily expect a seat on the Tube so I don't to see why this should be a consideration on Crossrail. In any event Crossrail journeys through London will be quick so one will not have to stand for long: 4 minutes to Tottenham Court Road and 17 minutes to Canary Wharf.

The current method of making it into central London is to head for Paddington, then go for a nice wwalk with a few thousand other people to the tube. A change of platform at OOC is going to be so much easier.

And long may it continue...!

However reaching the Crossrail platforms at Paddington will be a whole new experience. Walk towards the Lawn, pass the barriers and turn right. The entrance to Crossrail will be through the arches where the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)'s booking hall used to be located beside the taxi set-down road alongside Eastbourne Terrace and then down escalators, stairs or lifts to the Crossrail platforms. The Crossrail platforms are under Eastbourne Terrace.

It will be closer than any of the existing tube or sub-surface platforms. Platform 1 arrivals will have it best of all, it will be right alongside.

Edit: corrected quotes.

Its quite likely a number of trains to / from the West will call at OOC for the interchange with both HS2 and Crossrail

I'm not sure I understand your first remark. The point I was making was that the Atkins report was saying that the modelling showed that of the London to Birmingham passenger flows, roundly, one third would route through OOC and two thirds through Euston. That one third averages out to be some 3,000 passengers per hour over an 18 hour day. As each Crossrail train has a capacity of some 1,500 people these HS2 transfer passengers would fill two Crossrail trains per hour leaving plenty of capacity for those GW^▸ (Great Western) passengers who want to change to a Crossrail train at Paddington.

To the second point. I would be quite happy if one or two GW Main Line services every hour called at OOC for connecting passengers. The issue is that the HS2 modelling calls for the HEx trains to call at OOC so giving passengers to and from Birmingham and points north easier and quicker access to Heathrow. The HEx trains use the Mains and with the current train density with headways between 2 minute minimum and 5 minutes maximum off-peak, if the HEx trains call then every train using the Mains will have to call whether or not there is a commercial reason. This will slow every single GW service running on the Mains by four minutes - thus in a large part negating many performance improvements due to the introduction of the IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train).

To me this is unacceptable - it was never in the HS2 prospectus that one result would be that GW trains would be slower.

[Robin Summerhill]

[

To me this is unacceptable - it was never in the HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) prospectus that one result would be that GW^▸ (Great Western) trains would be slower.

It is not only unacceptable from a railway point of view, it is also a potential PR^▸ (Public Relations) disaster. I am sure there are plenty of media editors who could come up with a snappy headline summarising “Railway spend billions on new faster rains only to slow them down again.”

So we need to look at alternative options. I am not going to sit here pontificating on things I don’t know the detail of, so I will pose some questions that hopefully somebody can answer. Then I can start pontificating!

1   How many platforms will OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) have? Are the fast lines being platformed and/or will there be a facility to get stoppers out of the way of expresses?

2   What spare capacity (if any) is available on the slow lines?

3   How many usable running lines are there between OOC and PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)? Is there any possibility of providing more (I’m thinking specifically of the former ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) lines)

4   To increase capacity east of Airport Junction, would it be feasible  to route stone trans bound for Acton via Bicester, the Chiltern Line and Greenford/West Ealing? Can the North London lines be accessed from the former GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) Birmingham route?

[grahame]

Perhaps Old Oak will become the Clapham Junction of West London

I am trying to come up with examples (and not finding too many clear ones - but see below) where incoming trains actually drop off the majority of their passengers at an interchange before carrying on to a terminus. Yes, I do see that the consultants who know far better than us say this won't happen, but yet I wonder.

Hamburg Hauptbahnhof through station to Altona terminus
London Bridge through station to Cannon Street terminus
Blackfriars through station to Holborn Viaduct terminus (historic)
Falmouth Town through station to Falmouth Docks terminus

[stuving]

[

To me this is unacceptable - it was never in the HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) prospectus that one result would be that GW^▸ (Great Western) trains would be slower.

It is not only unacceptable from a railway point of view, it is also a potential PR^▸ (Public Relations) disaster. I am sure there are plenty of media editors who could come up with a snappy headline summarising “Railway spend billions on new faster rains only to slow them down again.”

So we need to look at alternative options. I am not going to sit here pontificating on things I don’t know the detail of, so I will pose some questions that hopefully somebody can answer. Then I can start pontificating!

1   How many platforms will OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) have? Are the fast lines being platformed and/or will there be a facility to get stoppers out of the way of expresses?

2   What spare capacity (if any) is available on the slow lines?

3   How many usable running lines are there between OOC and PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)? Is there any possibility of providing more (I’m thinking specifically of the former ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) lines)

4   To increase capacity east of Airport Junction, would it be feasible  to route stone trans bound for Acton via Bicester, the Chiltern Line and Greenford/West Ealing? Can the North London lines be accessed from the former GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) Birmingham route?

Nonsense. It's not your job, it's too late, and it wouldn't change anything. In any case, the GW station at OOC was always going to be two platforms on each of four running lines, and the implications of that have been known for years. This is from the Western Route Study of August 2015:

• connectivity to HS2.
The HS2 station at Old Oak Common will provide access to fast services towards the Midlands and North and is anticipated to open in 2026. This is likely to lead to an increase in rail passenger demand towards London Paddington as journeys from Reading to Manchester, for example, could be faster via HS2 with an interchange at Old Oak Common than by using the existing cross-country route

 • current proposals for the layout will require all Main (and Relief) Line trains to call at Old Oak Common Station. There is also likely to be an impact from the construction of HS2 which may temporarily drive requirements for an increase in freight paths, or bring forward longer term requirements

 • renewals opportunities. The renewal of Ladbroke Grove Junction and the approaches to London Paddington is forecast, following life extension work in CP5^▸ (Control Period 5 - the five year period between 2014 and 2019). The forecast increases in demand for both passengers and freight, and in the context of wider network optimisation, provides an opportunity to improve the layout on the approach to London Paddington. Grade separation of Ladbroke Grove Junction would increase the capability of the whole system, reducing the level of conflicting train movements creating greater timetable capability, increasing flexibility in the platforming and operation of services using London Paddington and associated depots. The intervention is subject to a value for money assessment presented in A13

 • the opportunity exists to align the enhancement of Ladbroke Grove Junction and Paddington approaches with the renewal and the opening of the new HS2 station at Old Oak Common. Such an approach could minimise passenger impact while achieving efficient delivery of a system enhancement through alignment with the renewals.

It may well be that NR^» (Network Rail - home page) would have liked to have a through pair of tracks too, which would directly address the "all trains stop" issue. You'd have thought the land could be found, as the only competing use is railway depots. However, NR do seem to have accepted it wouldn't happen. On the other hand, their long-term plan to boot HEx off the mains (and NR's long-term is very long indeed) is still alive, I'm sure.

Other capacity increases have been studied in the past, and some are discussed in the 2015 WRS^▸ (Western Route Study - Network Rail's successor to the RUS). Those analyses are essentially pre-HS2, but they act mainly on the overall flow out to Airport Junction, so OOC might or might not be a new bottleneck in that flow.

[Robin Summerhill]

A comprehensive reply there from Stuving which shows it is always better to get hold of facts before pontificating!

And I am aware that it is not my job. If it was I wouldn't be writing about it on an internet discussion forum!

[Electric train]

Perhaps Old Oak will become the Clapham Junction of West London

I am trying to come up with examples (and not finding too many clear ones - but see below) where incoming trains actually drop off the majority of their passengers at an interchange before carrying on to a terminus. Yes, I do see that the consultants who know far better than us say this won't happen, but yet I wonder.

Hamburg Hauptbahnhof through station to Altona terminus
London Bridge through station to Cannon Street terminus
Blackfriars through station to Holborn Viaduct terminus (historic)
Falmouth Town through station to Falmouth Docks terminus

St Pancras (TLP),  Farringdon (TLP), London Bridge (TLP & Charing X), Waterloo East,


You have think of the destinations passengers will want when heading south or origins when heading north

From Old Oak Common station it will have easy connection to Heathrow, the West End (Bond St, Oxford St, TCR) the City of London, Dockland; and that is without considering destinations further west or east.

Potentially also connections onto the West London Line, also Willesden Jcn is not that far.

[Celestial]

A couple of (unrelated) thoughts.

If large numbers of passengers use the Elizabeth Line to access GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) trains at OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) then presumably the dwell times will be quite large, as everyone gets on and off. So journey times to/from Paddington will be extended by more than a normal stop will take.  Although those using OOC might consider that to be "London", so it might just be the perception of the headline journey time being extended.

If every train is stopping at OOC, with frequent fast services to LHR from there, does that invalidate the need for the Western Connection to the airport, which appears to be grinding through the development process as slowly as the Portishead railway and East/West rail did.  

[TonyK]

1   How many platforms will OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) have? Are the fast lines being platformed and/or will there be a facility to get stoppers out of the way of expresses?

Fourteen, according to HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s))'s webpage for Old oak Common, being eight above ground for the "conventional" railway, and six underground for HS2. Upstairs, the platforms will serve Crossrail and everything else. I saw mention of a Chiltern line connection too, because Marylebone is full and can't be extended, but I can't find that again to see if it's a plan or an aspiration. It does sound as though HS2 will be separate, which should limit any time penalty to the time needed to stop a GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) train at OOC.

As for a new Clapham Junction - it can't be far off in terms of potential usage, and is only 3 platforms shy. Two of those at CLJ are bay platforms. Imagine for a moment how different Clapham Junction could be it it were to be built today from scratch. 6 platforms downstairs and 8 above?

[rogerw]

Heathrow express, assuming it still exists, does not need to stop at OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)). There will be a frequent service on teh Elizabeth line.

[Electric train]

A couple of (unrelated) thoughts.

If large numbers of passengers use the Elizabeth Line to access GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) trains at OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) then presumably the dwell times will be quite large, as everyone gets on and off. So journey times to/from Paddington will be extended by more than a normal stop will take.  Although those using OOC might consider that to be "London", so it might just be the perception of the headline journey time being extended.

If every train is stopping at OOC, with frequent fast services to LHR from there, does that invalidate the need for the Western Connection to the airport, which appears to be grinding through the development process as slowly as the Portishead railway and East/West rail did.  

If you have ever used the HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) services in Europe their dwell times are quite short 2 to 4 min max,  HEX dwell times could be as short as 2 min

Heathrow express, assuming it still exists, does not need to stop at OOC. There will be a frequent service on teh Elizabeth line.

I am sure it will including its extension to Reading.  Although Heathrow could well be loosing its status as a European hub the drive coming from Brexit (the uncertainness of the future relationship with the UK^▸ (United Kingdom)) which Covid is quickening the pace; after all British Airways is a registered company in Spain

[4064ReadingAbbey]

Perhaps Old Oak will become the Clapham Junction of West London

I am trying to come up with examples (and not finding too many clear ones - but see below) where incoming trains actually drop off the majority of their passengers at an interchange before carrying on to a terminus. Yes, I do see that the consultants who know far better than us say this won't happen, but yet I wonder.

Hamburg Hauptbahnhof through station to Altona terminus
London Bridge through station to Cannon Street terminus
Blackfriars through station to Holborn Viaduct terminus (historic)
Falmouth Town through station to Falmouth Docks terminus

An interesting idea but I find it difficult to see OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) becoming the Clapham Junction of West London.

As I understand it, tickets for the journey Euston - OOC will not be available although the source I read wasn't clear if tickets for further afield, such as Euston to West Drayton or Reading would also not be valid. If this is true and such journeys would not be possible via HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) then the parallel to Clapham Junction - that one can change there for either Victoria or Waterloo - falls flat. In any event the longer distance trains tend not to call at Clapham Junction anyway; mostly only semi-fast or stopping services call there. There are no stopping services on HS2 and I can't see the HS2 operator wanting to have short distance passengers on the trains as it will be another issue to manage to keep dwell times short, quite apart from spoiling the ambience for the longer distance passengers. This latter is a complaint often heard about XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)).

For the other routes the proposed stations on the West London and North London lines will be several hundred yards away from the HS2 station and I have seen no proposals for building a station on the Central Line between North and East Acton close to the HS2 station. I can't see such an arrangement encouraging interchange traffic.

On another topic...!

The story of railway development in Hamburg is quite complex, but essentially when the railways were built a site close to the city centre was desired. In view of the restricted sites available - the Elbe flows very close to the centre to the south and there are two large lakes (the Binnenalster and the Außenalster) in the centre, together with the already built up areas close to the centre - the site chosen ran along the edge of the old city wall. But this had no space for carriage sidings, engine sheds and so on so the line was carried through to Altona which was also the terminus of the routes running north of Hamburg, to Sylt, Neumunster, Kiel, Schleswig and up into Denmark making connections easy. The Hbf mainly serves routes to the south as well as those to Lübeck and Berlin and these are the most densely travelled routes. As the Hbf is also an important U-and S-Bahn station this is the reason why so many people get off northbound trains and get on southbound ones!

[Electric train]

An interesting idea but I find it difficult to see OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) becoming the Clapham Junction of West London.

As I understand it, tickets for the journey Euston - OOC will not be available although the source I read wasn't clear if tickets for further afield, such as Euston to West Drayton or Reading would also not be valid.

The original stance of SE Trains HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) services was Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) was not available between St Pancras and Strafford, that did not last long, its all about revenue

For the other routes the proposed stations on the West London and North London lines will be several hundred yards away from the HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) station and I have seen no proposals for building a station on the Central Line between North and East Acton close to the HS2 station. I can't see such an arrangement encouraging interchange traffic.

Linking OOC HS2 station to the West and North London line can be achieved by travellators, there is a proposal for stations in Old Oak Common Lan on the North London line and Scrubs Lane on the West London Line.

[TonyK]

Meanwhile, a group of protesters organised have left the site of Curzon Street station to walk the 125-mile route to London, according to the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) News website.

Anti-HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) campaigners begin week-long protest


Demonstrators gathered in Birmingham at about 09:00 BST
Campaigners against the HS2 rail project have started a week-long protest walk along the line's route.

Demonstrators from Extinction Rebellion and the Stop HS2 group set out from Birmingham's Curzon Street Station to London at 09:00 BST.

They accuse HS2 of "decimating countryside and creating a huge financial burden at a time of deep economic crisis".

HS2 said the "majority of [the groups'] accusations are inaccurate".


The group is walking from Birmingham to London to campaign for HS2 to be scrapped

About 100 people gathered outside the station, which will be the high-speed rail line's terminus when it opens in Birmingham - expected to be between 2028-2031.

"We're marching because we've had enough," Matthew Bishop, from the Save Cubbington Woods campaign, said.

"That the government has carried on with HS2 when we urgently need funding for our health service, our economic recovery and our local transport networks, makes clear where their priorities lie."

Originally expected to cost £56bn, the latest estimate shows costs of the project have spiralled to £106bn.

In May, a report by MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) found the project was "badly off course" and accused HS2 Ltd and the Department for Transport of lacking transparency and undermining public confidence.

Protesters are demanding funds are used for the country's economic recovery following the coronavirus lockdown instead.

[img[https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/14D3E/production/_113001358_hs2_route_map_640-nc.png[/img]
They are walking the 125-mile (201 km) route that phase one of the rail line will take.

The group plans to walk 18.6 miles (30km) a day, through Warwickshire and the Chilterns, until they reach London Euston.

A spokesperson from HS2 said the organisation "is already playing a pivotal role in helping Britain's economic recovery", through jobs and contract opportunities.

I admire the strength of the convinction in the stated reason for the protest:

We're marching because we've had enough

but  I doubt as much as it is possible to doubt that anything will change, other than that the protesters will get a better idea of the work that is going on already along the route. The end will happen as it has in dozens of other protests over the years, early one morning at the hands of court officials and watching police, with lots of angry video for that night's news programmes, and a few quickly forgotten allegations of brutality and illegal behaviour by the bailiffs.

There are signs of mission creep and confusion. One of the banners in the photos  in the report calls for better broadband instead of HS2. This is already happening, held up somewhat by attacks on the new 5G  infrastructure, but will speed up once the towers are made taller and out of reinforced concrete surrounded by razor wire and cameras. If those protesters are members of ER, then they haven't done their homework. Extinction Rebellion is on the side of David Icke in the matter of 5G, as a Facebook group shows. Not only is ER for public transport and against public transport, it is for better broadband and against better broadband in equal measure. If that banner is the product of Stop HS2, then the two groups could end up at each others' throats before they catch the train back to Brum.

[Red Squirrel]

Also worth noting that the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) seems to have accepted the £106bn figure as though it was a fact or something...

[SandTEngineer]

Everybody should have the right to protest (peacefully) about what they believe is wrong, but don't have the right to impose their particular viewpoint on others by physically disruptive activity.  I suspect the HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) protests will just fizzle out once people get bored with it all, and things will move on.  For example, why don't they put their energies into asking about the money advertised on the big red bus that was promoted during the last election?  Thats quite likely to get huge backing from the general public.....

Just a personal view.