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Author Topic: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion  (Read 297824 times)
TaplowGreen
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« Reply #1155 on: November 18, 2021, 12:06:49 pm »

Confirmed.

BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) News - HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) cut confirmed amid promise to transform rail
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59334043
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #1156 on: November 18, 2021, 12:51:22 pm »

The 'Midlands Rail Hub' (MRH) section on P.116 confirms that the Moor Street Western Chord is still in with a chance:

Quote
MRH will focus on enabling improved services to Birmingham Moor Street, which is next to the HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) terminus at Curzon Street. This could see more trains per hour passing through Moor Street with more local and long-distance services into Moor Street. The Rail Hub could enable improved services to Hereford, Bristol and Cardiff, plus the transfer of commuter services on the Birmingham ‘Camp Hill’ line from Kings Norton.

I'm probably not alone in thinking Moor St a much better place to arrive into!

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paul7575
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« Reply #1157 on: November 18, 2021, 12:53:04 pm »

I have mirrored the newly published DfT» (Department for Transport - about) "Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands at

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/mirror/integrated-rail-plan-for-the-north-and-midlands.pdf

I am unclear what it does for the South West, though Dominic Raab was quoted as saying it will be "good for all England" on the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) this morning.
I think it protects us from “Northerners”, as they’re all going to be scurrying about on an E/W axis, rather than coming down here.  Grin
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #1158 on: November 18, 2021, 04:08:27 pm »

The 'Midlands Rail Hub' (MRH) section on P.116 confirms that the Moor Street Western Chord is still in with a chance:

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MRH will focus on enabling improved services to Birmingham Moor Street, which is next to the HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) terminus at Curzon Street. This could see more trains per hour passing through Moor Street with more local and long-distance services into Moor Street. The Rail Hub could enable improved services to Hereford, Bristol and Cardiff, plus the transfer of commuter services on the Birmingham ‘Camp Hill’ line from Kings Norton.

I'm probably not alone in thinking Moor St a much better place to arrive into!


Better than where?

Pretty much anywhere would be better than New St IMO (in my opinion) but New St isn't part of HS2 anyway. I'm not in a position to compare Moor St and Curzon St, which look very close together on that map.
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ellendune
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« Reply #1159 on: November 18, 2021, 09:24:53 pm »

They seem to be spending money on speed improvements on the ECML (East Coast Main Line).  Presumably that will reduce capacity. Is this why they are trying to reduce the number of trains run on the network, so they can run a few high speeds trains to look good?
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #1160 on: November 19, 2021, 12:34:23 pm »

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The map which shows what we asked for and what we got in new rail plan

"We have watched as billions have been poured into Crossrail being dug out and built across the capital. It is time for the North to have its fair share."

Some elements of the original plan have remained, but gone is the brand new 40-mile high speed line between Manchester and Leeds via Bradford, which was at the heart of Northern Powerhouse Rail.

Along with the removal of the eastern leg of HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)), this has been 'watered down' to become a patchwork of a new high speed line from Warrington to Marsden in Yorkshire, via Manchester, tacked on to an upgraded TransPennine rote.

It is understood the move shaves around £18bn from the favoured £36bn plan put forward by Northern leaders.

Calling today’s announcement a ‘Championship’ rather than a ‘Premier League’ option, Andy Burnham said the government must now spend an extra £4bn building a full new high speed rail route from Manchester to Leeds, via Bradford.

The mayor demanded a free vote in Parliament on the plan, particularly on the need to spend extra on a full new line to Leeds.

...continues, with interactive map
Source: Manchester Evening News
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TonyK
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« Reply #1161 on: November 19, 2021, 09:37:43 pm »

Pretty much anywhere would be better than New St IMO (in my opinion) but New St isn't part of HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) anyway. I'm not in a position to compare Moor St and Curzon St, which look very close together on that map.

New Street is a place used of necessity, not choice.

While the demise of the eastern leg of HS2 was widely trailed in an attempt to soften the blow, the decision will have many consequences, some of them for rail passengers but many for the government and the Prime Minister. The latter, having "crashed the car into a ditch" a few days earlier, has crashed the train into the ditch. The usual "don't explain, don't apologise, move on" method of dealing with political problems won't work. The Labour party won't need a manifesto around Leeds, Bradford, Manchester and others for the next election, just a compilation video of "what he said, what he did" moments. There will be some rejoicing in other places, as residents living along the now abandoned route celebrate the cancellation, but it will be brief. The route is preserved, with reinstatement of the plans a possibility after the next election, and the communities that weren't bought out earlier will suffer the same blight as the people of Sipson, in the way of Heathrow's third runway.

One of the reasons given for HS2 as opposed to an upgrade of the WCML (West Coast Main Line) was the huge disruption the latter would cause. So it will be for the frozen wastes of the north, with no trains on many routes over weekends for a few years. No number of cheerful cameo appearances by Grant Shapps will sugar that pill. Bradford will still be hardly levelled up at the end of it all, and is but one of many losers among the red wall constituencies.

The reason is clearly money, the excuses being given intended to make it sound like it isn't about money. Leeds gets the possibility of a tram system as a consolation prize, 17 years after the cancellation of its last plans and with no guarantee the rug won't be pulled at the last minute, like last time. The PM's contention that big rail construction projects are "grindingly slow" is valid to a point, but he really means that they can't be done within the lifetime of a parliament. Like Hinkley C and the Edinburgh tramway, it's a political liability until it starts working, by which time the party that was complaining loudest in opposition might be the one cutting the tape and accepting the plaudits. No-one remembers the disruption caused one things start to roll, and once built, a railway can be forever.

There are few winners. One is the Chancellor, who seems to be keeping quiet and letting the boss bat away the bouncers and googlies. I'm sure that when the time is right, he will be able to step in to rebuild trust in the party, leaving the current incumbent of number 10 able to spend more time with his family, or more likely someone else's family.

The most worrying thought is that having replaced a grand scheme with a number of smaller projects, there will be a lot more opportunity for selective cheese paring - the loss of electrics here, a lower line speed there. The finished product could end up as nothing recognisable when compared to the announcements, a bit like the electrification of GWR (Great Western Railway) to Oxford and Swansea.

It will happen one day, but it's an opportunity missed.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2021, 10:45:33 am by TonyK » Logged

Now, please!
bradshaw
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« Reply #1162 on: November 19, 2021, 10:28:33 pm »

Note that the commitments are ONLY to progress to next stage of development after which reauthorisation will be required

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  In line with the Government’s existing approach to rail enhancements, commitments will be made only to progress individual schemes up to the next stage of development, and a re-authorisation will be required at that point. This allows the future scope and pace of delivery to be adjusted depending on a range of factors, including how quickly demand returns to historic levels, and how efficiently they can be delivered.
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TonyK
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« Reply #1163 on: November 20, 2021, 10:46:41 am »

Note that the commitments are ONLY to progress to next stage of development after which reauthorisation will be required

Quote
  In line with the Government’s existing approach to rail enhancements, commitments will be made only to progress individual schemes up to the next stage of development, and a re-authorisation will be required at that point. This allows the future scope and pace of delivery to be adjusted depending on a range of factors, including how quickly demand returns to historic levels, and how efficiently they can be delivered.


A timely reminder.
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onthecushions
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« Reply #1164 on: November 20, 2021, 07:27:31 pm »


That's true of any Govt Report.

If they intended to renege on it they would have left the Eastern Leg in etc, so as not to incur criticism at this stage.

As it is it tidies up HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) and TP to an extent and admits that more work is needed on access to Leeds. It does include welcome upgrades to a much wider group of destinations that HS2 would bypass, being a politicians' vanity project, excessively distanced from the existing, mature railway.

What will happen to our XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services, both from Bristol and Oxford Northwards?

OTC
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ellendune
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« Reply #1165 on: November 20, 2021, 09:21:55 pm »

It does include welcome upgrades to a much wider group of destinations that HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) would bypass, being a politicians' vanity project, excessively distanced from the existing, mature railway.
Please could you list these places as I am not clear which they are. 

I can't find the link now but I have seen a very good video on why HS2 benefits Aberystwyth.  It is because services cannot be increased to Aberystwyth because of lack of capacity between Birmingham and Wolverhampton. 

The key point is that removing high speed non-stop services from mixed traffic lines releases far more paths than the number of trains transferred. 
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onthecushions
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« Reply #1166 on: November 21, 2021, 02:56:44 pm »


I would at least, list every Midland Station from St Pancras to Sheffield. They would now have full AT electrification and doubtless a better timetable.

Additionally, HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) trains would directly reach Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield Midland stations.

Also, connecting services to these points would now act more as feeders.

I agree that there's work to do in and for Yorkshire but we need an integrated HS2 not a cuckoo, divorced from the existing network, with timetable footnotes of, "passengers make their own way between x  and the HS2 station".

OTC
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #1167 on: November 21, 2021, 04:09:20 pm »

Another interesting and well balanced piece on the revised plan from Christian Wolmar;

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/18/revised-hs2-plan-viable-boris-johnson-rail
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ellendune
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« Reply #1168 on: November 21, 2021, 05:47:13 pm »

I was frankly sceptical about your introduction to an article on HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) by Christian Wolmar. Reading the article didn't change my mind. By well balanced did you mean agreed with you?

The capacity thing was never an afterthought.  All those local capacity improvements will bring huge disruption to rail services in the North for years to come.  Going as far as East Midlands Parkway will at least improve capacity on the southern section of the Midland main line, but do little for the East Coast Main Line.  Increased line speeds on the ECML (East Coast Main Line) will soak up paths and therefore will reduce capacity rather than increase it. 

He did not really mention Northern Powerhouse Rail - What good is Trans Pennine electrification that is not electrified between Stalybridge and Huddersfield.  Looks more like two schemes one for Manchester suburban electrification and another for Leeds suburban electrification. 
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #1169 on: November 21, 2021, 07:02:13 pm »

Another interesting and well balanced piece...

Excellent. Looking forward to the next interesting and well-balanced piece from Simon Jenkins!
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