HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion

[whole diary]

[Bmblbzzz]

So that would be a compulsory change of trains on the way to London for people from S. Wales, the West of England, Devon and Cornwall? Sounds like a good incentive to take the coach or drive.

Nope - "many/most" not "all".   In the interest of Clock Face, a Carmarthen, a Penzance and and a Bristol train still running into Paddingon each hour - routes where there is a current pattern of Express and SemiFast.  And, yes, expect howls of "no way!" from those who have to make an additional change of trains.

But - serious question - how many people are headed for a final destination of Paddington, and how many change there anyway to head on to the cities of Westminster or London, both served by the Elizabeth line?

Given the size of London, I expect that most people are headed for neither Paddington nor anywhere else on the Elizabeth line, but have dispersed destinations through the whole conglomeration – and beyond. As such what's important is not that they arrive in "Paddington" or "Old Oak Common" but that it's "London – with good connections to tube, bus and further rail" and as they're inevitably going to have to change in London, an extra change before they even get there does seem offputting.

[eightonedee]

Crayonista Answer:

1. Terminate many/most of the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) long distance services at Reading rather then Paddington

2. Extend Elizabeth line trains that currently terminate at Paddington from tunnel through London to Reading, with no or very limited intermediate stops

3. Run HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) trains in to terminate at Paddington using platform space freed from GWR trains terminating at Reading.

That sounds like a Ryanair answer Grahame!

However, if it is linked to Ryanair fare levels - (Penzance for a fiver?)...................

Oh, I am forgetting, that's if you book in advance, and don't want to carry anything on with you. As for onboard catering......

[eXPassenger]

If that prediction turns out to be correct it will be interesting to see how they deal with the lack of HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) platforms at Old Oak Common.

Crayonista Answer:

1. Terminate many/most of the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) long distance services at Reading rather then Paddington

2. Extend Elizabeth line trains that currently terminate at Paddington from tunnel through London to Reading, with no or very limited intermediate stops

3. Run HS2 trains in to terminate at Paddington using platform space freed from GWR trains terminating at Reading.

The problem with terminating HS2 at Paddington is that major engineering works would be required to surface the HS2 lines and cross the EL lines (GWR reliefs) before rebuilding Paddington to take 400m trains.  Euston might be cheaper.

[grahame]

The problem with terminating HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) at Paddington is that major engineering works would be required to surface the HS2 lines and cross the EL lines (GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) reliefs) before rebuilding Paddington to take 400m trains.  Euston might be cheaper.

Agreed on the crossover and surfacing.   Paddington can take 260 metre trains.  How many HS2 trains would be or would need to be in excess of that?   Pendelino is maximum 265 metres?   Perhaps the Scottish sleepers are 400m but could they still run into Euston?    OK - I am the master of the stupid question.

[bradshaw]

William Barter’s written submission to the Transport Select Committee is worth reading on HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) and Euston

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/119722/html/

[TaplowGreen]

William Barter’s written submission to the Transport Select Committee is worth reading on HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) and Euston

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/119722/html/

Very interesting reading and rather demolishes the narrative around using OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) as a London terminus rather than Euston making very little difference.

[Electric train]

William Barter’s written submission to the Transport Select Committee is worth reading on HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) and Euston

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/119722/html/

Very interesting reading and rather demolishes the narrative around using OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) as a London terminus rather than Euston making very little difference.

Agreed that the design of OOC is limiting, I still believe that a significant if not majority of passengers will change at OOC.  OOC connectivity via the Elizbeth Line will be the main reason

[didcotdean]

In its conception phase there was consideration of OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)), then referred to as London Interchange, being the terminus of HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) and not going on to Euston. No doubt there would have to have been a completely different configuration of the station if that had been taken up. Choosing to have High Speed Rail situated further out from a centre at a new location from 'traditional' services is not that unusual internationally.

[IndustryInsider]

William Barter’s written submission to the Transport Select Committee is worth reading on HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) and Euston

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/119722/html/

Very interesting reading and rather demolishes the narrative around using OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) as a London terminus rather than Euston making very little difference.

Yup.  It can provide a role as an initial terminus before later phases, and therefore more trains start running and then you will need Euston, or an equivalent.

Or, you don’t have those later stages, don’t bother with Euston, and then you do end up with the very expensive white elephant with few benefits.

[Electric train]

The money making part of HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) is the development of the land around Euston Station, much of the land taken up was owned by NR^» (Network Rail - home page), Government, Local Authorities etc.  just like the area around St Pancras although I do not think Euston will be as lucrative St Pancras

[stuving]

There's a new hole - sink, not bore, this time. from the Guardian:

HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) contractor confirms ‘sizeable’ sinkhole in Buckinghamshire

Construction firm Align told residents near Amersham the hole is six meters across and five deep
Diane Taylor           Sun 14 May 2023 15.31 BST            Last modified on Sun 14 May 2023 15.56 BST

The firm constructing the HS2 high-speed rail line has has confirmed that it is investigating the emergence of a sinkhole close to a Buckinghamshire river on Saturday, which has been identified as “quite sizeable” in correspondence seen by the Guardian.

The sinkhole is close to Shardeloes Lake near Amersham and according to an email from an official from HS2 Ltd’s contractor, Align, sent on Saturday evening to local residents: “It’s quite sizeable – around six meters in diameter and five meters deep. These are approximate measurements.”

The sinkhole is in Bazzards Field, south-west of the lake. It has been fenced off and is near a public right of way.

The email adds: “The landowners have been informed and livestock moved to a safe place.”

HS2 Ltd sources said the area where the sinkhole has emerged is above a section of completed tunnelling, so tunnelling operations are continuing. The sources added that the Environment Agency has been notified and HS2 is engaging with the landowner about the structure...

[TaplowGreen]

...........the first recorded example of a sinkhole appearing in a money pit? 

[Electric train]

There's a new hole - sink, not bore, this time. from the Guardian:

HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) contractor confirms ‘sizeable’ sinkhole in Buckinghamshire

Construction firm Align told residents near Amersham the hole is six meters across and five deep
Diane Taylor           Sun 14 May 2023 15.31 BST            Last modified on Sun 14 May 2023 15.56 BST

The firm constructing the HS2 high-speed rail line has has confirmed that it is investigating the emergence of a sinkhole close to a Buckinghamshire river on Saturday, which has been identified as “quite sizeable” in correspondence seen by the Guardian.

The sinkhole is close to Shardeloes Lake near Amersham and according to an email from an official from HS2 Ltd’s contractor, Align, sent on Saturday evening to local residents: “It’s quite sizeable – around six meters in diameter and five meters deep. These are approximate measurements.”

The sinkhole is in Bazzards Field, south-west of the lake. It has been fenced off and is near a public right of way.

The email adds: “The landowners have been informed and livestock moved to a safe place.”

HS2 Ltd sources said the area where the sinkhole has emerged is above a section of completed tunnelling, so tunnelling operations are continuing. The sources added that the Environment Agency has been notified and HS2 is engaging with the landowner about the structure...

Sink holes appearing in the Chilterns is not an unknown occurrence, especially with the levels of rain we have had in the last few weeks

[stuving]

Sink holes appearing in the Chilterns is not an unknown occurrence, especially with the levels of rain we have had in the last few weeks

Indeed so, and this one is much more likely to have been sitting there waiting for a TBM to trigger its collapse than initiated by tunnelling. The propagation of voids up trough the ground is a gradual process, even for a tiny one such as I had in my garden - that took years to get from a drain (1.3 m down) to the surface.

[stuving]

Back in February, we had that slurry bubbling up a borehole next to the rugby pitch. There's now a rumour of a similar event in Herlwyn Avenue, not far away. That'll be Caroline - Shushila's past the end of Herlwyn Avenue now.

While looking for any report on that, I found this HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) local information leaflet from last October, which includes stuff about their boreholes ... at the Rugby Club:

We are carrying out the following works in the vicinity of Herlwyn Avenue. We will be removing some boreholes located on the rugby club pitch. There will also be the installation of surveying equipment to measure any ground movement related to the tunnel boring machines. This work will take place in October and will take a minimal amount of time.

The schedule talks about "10 to 17 October: Removal of boreheoles at the rugby pitch. Installation of one new borehole." So why wasn't that made clear at once, either by HS2 or in media comments?