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Author Topic: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion  (Read 397705 times)
mjones
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« Reply #285 on: January 07, 2012, 21:17:51 »

I've just been reading the comments on the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) news website article, and it is depressing to see just how few people seem to understand what is actually proposed:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16453869

A typical argument is "^30 billion just to save 20 minutes to Birmingham? But who wants to go to Birmingham anyway!!!".  Or variants of the slightly more constructive "Why not spend the money on the existing network?"  Deliberate misrepresentation by the NIMBYs aside, there has clearly been a failure by supporters of HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) to get the message out that it is first and foremost about providing new capacity, by enabling fast trains to bypass the most congested lines, and that this will bring benefits for the whole WCML (West Coast Main Line) from "Day 1". As long as people continue to see it as only an expensive express train to Birmingham then it will never gain widespread support.
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Btline
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« Reply #286 on: January 07, 2012, 21:37:48 »

It's because it is reported to make it seem it is just for Birmingham:

"The line runs from London to Birmingham and will save... blah blah...."

When it should be reported as:

"The first phase will cut 30 minutes off journey times to the West Midlands and North West. The new track will run from London to Lichfield, just north of Birmingham, with a brach to the City CENTRE".

The bit to Lichfield is always overlooked. At least the Daily Mail highlighted all the journey savings (i.e. those in Scotland).

Another misleading LIE on BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) Midlands Today - they implied the 32 Billion was for phase 1 in the headlines. Only giving the correct details in the main piece. Of course by then, people will have tut tutted - too late.
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ellendune
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« Reply #287 on: January 07, 2012, 23:10:45 »

^16bn is OK for Crossrail as it will benefit London.  But HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) benefits the provinces so ^17bn to Birmingham is clearly excessive!
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Btline
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« Reply #288 on: January 10, 2012, 11:10:04 »

The line has been given the go-ahead, with more mitigations:

*A longer, continuous tunnel from Little Missenden to the M25 through the Chilterns;
*A new 3m bored tunnel along the Northolt Corridor to entirely avoid major works to the Chilterns Line and impacts on local communities in the Ruislip area;
*A longer green tunnel past Chipping Warden and Aston Le Walls, and to curve the route to avoid a cluster of important heritage sites around Edgcote; and
*A longer green tunnel to significantly reduce impacts around Wendover, and an extension to the green tunnel at South Heath.
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #289 on: January 10, 2012, 11:38:29 »

Not that the NIMBY's will be placated by that one iota.  Still, another hurdle in the race overcome - though plenty still lie in wait...
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« Reply #290 on: January 10, 2012, 14:05:42 »

The line has been given the go-ahead, with more mitigations:

*A longer, continuous tunnel from Little Missenden to the M25 through the Chilterns;
I think this was mostly tunnel anyway, just a 2km section above ground.  I can't see why anyone wanted this section covered - perhaps it spoilt the view from the A413 dual carriage way along side it?  Perhaps it was preferable from an engineering perspective and good for PR (Public Relations) too even if slightly more expensive...?

Quote
*...
*...and to curve the route to avoid a cluster of important heritage sites around Edgcote; and
*...
One would hope this curve is very slight and doesn't reduce the 400km/h line speed there.

Very good news though.
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Btline
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« Reply #291 on: January 10, 2012, 14:21:47 »

I'm glad they're not eating up land in the Northolt Corridor, as it will enable Chiltern to fully 4 track it in the years ahead.
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EBrown
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« Reply #292 on: January 10, 2012, 15:22:17 »

Here's a rather long article about it being given the green light! BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page)

Quote
A ^33bn high-speed rail network has been given the go-ahead by the government, despite strong opposition.

Phase one of HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)), between London and Birmingham, should be running by 2026, later extending to northern England.

Transport Secretary Justine Greening has announced extra tunnelling along the 140-mile (225km) first phase in response to environmental concerns.

She said it would create "jobs, growth and prosperity", but critics dispute projected benefits of up to ^47bn.

Ms Greening called the line "the most significant transport infrastructure project since the building of the motorways".

The London to Birmingham link would be followed by a second phase of Y-shaped track reaching Manchester and Leeds by about 2033, she said.

A consultation on the second phase will begin in early 2014, with a final route chosen by the end of that year.

Travelling at speeds of up to 250mph, passengers will be able to commute from Birmingham to London in 45 minutes, reducing the journey time by almost half from one hour and 24 minutes.

A Birmingham to Leeds journey will be reduced from two hours to 57 minutes and a Manchester to London journey from two hours and eight minutes to one hour and eight minutes.

Connections to existing lines should then cut journey times between London, and Edinburgh and Glasgow, to three-and-a-half hours.


Quote from: Analysis
Richard Black
Environment correspondent, BBC News


Big infrastructure projects often carry potential for both environmental benefit and harm; and HS2 is no exception.

Wildlife groups have warned it could damage around 160 important wildlife sites, and the latest modifications to the route have done little to alter that picture.

Stephen Trotter, head of Warwickshire Wildlife Trust, told BBC News he was "very disappointed"; the much vaunted extra tunnels will do little, he said, and there's still "serious concern" about destruction to woodlands and other important habitats.

All this might be bearable for environmental groups if HS2 guaranteed a big win on carbon emissions; but it doesn't.

The government's own projections show it's not certain to reduce either flying or road use.

In any case, the trains will only be a green transport option if the electricity they use comes from low-carbon sources - which hangs on continuing government support for renewables and nuclear.

Anti-HS2 campaigners argue that improving existing lines could bring more certain environmental benefits much cheaper and much sooner.


The first phase of HS2 will include a connection to Europe via the Channel Tunnel. On completion of HS2 the network will include a direct link to Heathrow.

"By following in the footsteps of the 19th Century railway pioneers, the government is signalling its commitment to providing 21st Century infrastructure and connections - laying the groundwork for long-term, sustainable economic growth," said Ms Greening.

The government estimates that the project could eventually result in 9 million road journeys and 4.5 million journeys by plane instead being taken by train every year.

"HS2 is therefore an important part of transport's low-carbon future," Ms Greening said.

There had been almost 55,000 responses to the consultation process on the project, which clearly "generates strong feelings, both in favour and against the scheme", the minister said.

She pledged a commitment to "developing a network with the lowest feasible impacts on local communities and the natural environment".

"I have been mindful that we must safeguard the natural environment as far as possible, both for the benefit of those enjoying our beautiful countryside today and for future generations."

Revisions to the route had halved the number of homes at risk, as well as reducing by a third the number due to experience increased noise, she said.

The route's key sticking points

 
Changes to the plans, Ms Greening said, also meant that "more than half the route will now be mitigated by tunnel or cutting", including:
  • A longer tunnel through the Chiltern Hills from Little Missenden, Buckinghamshire, to the M25
  • A new 2.75-mile (4km) tunnel to avoid impacts on communities in Ruislip, north-west London
  • A longer covered cutting, known as a green tunnel, past Chipping Warden and Aston le Walls in Northamptonshire
  • A curve in the route to avoid heritage sites around Edgcote, Northants
  • Longer green tunnels at Wendover and South Heath, Bucks
  • The Department for Transport said that 22.5 miles of the first phase would now be enclosed in tunnels or green tunnels - up from 14.5 miles for the route that went to consultation - and a further 56.5 miles of cuttings would significantly reduce "visual and noise impact".

'Wealthy few'

Justine Greening says HS2 "will support jobs, growth and prosperity for Britain in the future"
Protest groups formed to oppose the scheme say the planned route crosses an area of outstanding natural beauty and it will damage the environment.

Adam Thomas, whose home in the Chiltern hills will make way for the rail route, said: "We're going to lose our home which we've spent so long building for ourselves. But I feel more sorry in a way for the country because it's such a colossal waste of money and it is genuinely is not needed."

Opponents have also challenged the government's economic argument, suggesting the costs will be greater while the economic benefits will be lower than forecast, and that the business case for HS2 is based on an overly-optimistic prediction of growth in demand for long-distance train travel.


Quote from: Jorn Madslien
"The government insists the HS2 project will bring between ^41.4bn to ^46.9bn of economic benefits over a period of six decades, ranging from income from ticket sales to reduced congestion on the roads and the creation of hundreds of jobs^


"There is no business case, no environmental case and there is no money to pay for it," said Stop HS2 campaign co-ordinator Joe Rukin.

"It's a white elephant of monumental proportions and you could deliver more benefits to more people more quickly for less money by investing in the current rail infrastructure."

Craig Bennett, director of policy and campaigns at Friends of the Earth, said: "We need to revolutionise travel away from roads and planes, but pumping ^32bn into high-speed travel for the wealthy few while ordinary commuters suffer is not the answer.

"High-speed rail has a role to play in developing a greener, faster transport system, but current plans won't do enough to cut emissions overall - ministers should prioritise spending on improving local train and bus services instead."

However, the plan would be welcomed by "businesses up and down the country", said John Longworth, director general of the British Chambers of Commerce.

"Britain cannot continue to 'make do and mend' when it comes to its substandard infrastructure. Fundamentally, our global competitiveness is at stake," he said.

Stephen Joseph, chief executive of Campaign for Better Transport, said: "We're pleased to see the government investing in rail, rather than roads and aviation, and acting on some of the local environmental concerns surrounding HS2."

But he went on: "The process for deciding on the London-Birmingham part of HS2 has been too narrow and people feel left out.

"In consulting on the lines north of Birmingham, the government needs to involve people earlier with greater discussion of alternative options, including ways rail investment can support low-carbon growth in the communities served, and also how any new lines will integrate with existing networks and improve local as well as long-distance transport."
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 15:35:51 by EBrown » Logged

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Lee
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« Reply #293 on: January 10, 2012, 17:13:24 »

Interesting Institute of Directors press release here.

It claims that IoD» (Institute of Directors - about) members are unsure on whether HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) provides good value for money, and in every UK (United Kingdom) region, IoD members think that improvements to existing intercity services are more important to their business.
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Btline
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« Reply #294 on: January 10, 2012, 17:21:58 »

I cannot believe the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) are still saying it is a 15 minute walk from Moor Street (where HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) terminates) to New Street. It takes THREE minutes - you can see one from the other. Roll Eyes I'd expect this kind of sloppy thing from newspapers or StopHS2, but not the BBC that have major offices there (i.e. should know where Moor Street is!)

Just watched the debate in the Commons, there is clear major support. Lots of banter about the Welsh secretary having her constiuency being put in a tunnel! Grin Tongue

Interestingly, the Chiltern's mega tunnel will save ^millions. Huh

Shame no-one pressed for a link at Burton on Trent, so EMT» (East Midlands Trains - about) and XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) (?) services could be diverted (using CC stock) from day 1.
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Btline
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« Reply #295 on: January 10, 2012, 17:34:42 »

Quote from the Telegraph

"The decision to include a direct link between the existing high speed line from London to the Channel Tunnel and the new route up to Birmingham was the biggest surprise in the announcement by Justine Greening, the Transport Secretary."

Oh dear... Roll Eyes
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JayMac
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« Reply #296 on: January 10, 2012, 17:43:14 »

I cannot believe the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) are still saying it is a 15 minute walk from Moor Street (where HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) terminates) to New Street. It takes THREE minutes - you can see one from the other. Roll Eyes I'd expect this kind of sloppy thing from newspapers or StopHS2, but not the BBC that have major offices there (i.e. should know where Moor Street is!)

Walkit.com suggest 5 mins fast, 7 mins medium, 11 mins slow. Minimum interchange time 15 mins.

Oh, and where are the BBC saying this? A link would be helpful....
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #297 on: January 10, 2012, 19:30:42 »

From the Shropshire Star:

Quote
Leader ^ New rail link is bad news for Shropshire

...

The emphasis of HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) is more towards the central and eastern part of the country, rather than the western areas, and so the prospect is for fewer services and a link to the capital for western areas which is actually poorer.

It is a little-reported fact that the high speed trains will not go into the centre of Birmingham at New Street, but will go to a new station on the eastern outskirts of the city.

This will mean passengers for Birmingham centre will need another train journey to get there, devaluing one of the main arguments in favour HS2, in that it will cut down journey times.

Rather than being a link into the heart of the Midlands, it actually bypasses the heart of the Midlands and points northwards and eastwards, an accurate indication of the direction of the planned further extension.

So, at the cost of a huge outlay at a time of austerity, attractive countryside will be blighted for the sake of saving a few minutes. The way air travel has developed has proven that speed is not necessarily king.

HS2 is a modern Concorde which will do nothing good for Shropshire.

The money would be better spend on upgrading and improving existing routes.
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« Reply #298 on: January 10, 2012, 19:45:41 »

Quote from: Shropshire Star
It is a little-reported fact that the high speed trains will not go into the centre of Birmingham at New Street, but will go to a new station on the eastern outskirts of the city.

This will mean passengers for Birmingham centre will need another train journey to get there, devaluing one of the main arguments in favour HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)), in that it will cut down journey times.

Journalist research fail. Or deliberate misinformation to suit the story.

You decide.
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mjones
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« Reply #299 on: January 10, 2012, 19:50:17 »


Journalist research fail. Or deliberate misinformation to suit the story.

You decide.

A bit of both probably. The complaint that people from Shropshire will have to change trains is also made in the dubious analysis of the Taxpayers' Alliance, conveniently forgetting that they already have to change trains.
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