HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion

[whole diary]

[ellendune]

Interresting nobodies's answered my question regading the Wolverhampton passenger will they expected/forced to use HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) because of lasck fo through trains to London?

No answers because we do not know what is planned. However through trains for more people or faster trains is always a thorny question.  It does rather depend on individual taste. The more places a train stops the slower it is.

It also depends what sort of service is provided to connect Wolverhampton to Birmingham.

If there was a semi fast Stafford, Wolverhampton, Birmingham service that got you to New Street with a short pedestrian connection to Moor Street (aka Curzon Street) for a High Speed train to London, then some might argue that is a better service than now if you got to London in less time.  If you had to catch the local dmu that stopped everywhere on route then you would not.

Some might prefer to take a semi fast all the way to Euston stopping (say) at Coventry, Rugby, Milton Keynes and Watford Jn. rather that change at Birmingham. However many people make this choice anyway. For them a direct semi-fast might still be a better service than you get from (say) Sutton Coldfield where you don't expect a direct service to London.

What about Derby Nottingham to London passengers are they expected to drive to Toton Parkway when they might live quite close to town stations. I used to go to Derby a lot and catch a bus down London Road to the computer centre. Would I have gone HS2 and be dumped at Toton for sake of a shorter journey which even with a taxi the time saving would have been eaten up by the extra time for the onward journey.

I have more experience of the East Midlands. As someone who was quite used to using the Nottingham Derby shuttles, using them to get to Toton to catch a High Speed Train seems to be no problem. After all not many people live in the City Centre.  I used to catch the train from Beeston to Nottingham to catch a London Train. So catching a Beeston Toton Train would have made no difference to me. As long as Totton does have heavy rail and tram connections from all parts of Nottingham and Derby I see no difference than trying to get to stations in the centre of Nottingham or Derby. The station that would seem to have no future is East Midlands Parkway. 

[Sapperton Tunnel]

Interresting nobodies's answered my question regading the Wolverhampton passenger will they expected/forced to use HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) because of lasck fo through trains to London?
 

Having had a further root around this document may be of use:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69743/updated-economic-case-for-hs2-_august-2012_-explanation-of-the-service-patterns.pdf

It was published in January 2013 as the explanation of the service patterns accompanying the August 2012 updated economic case for HS2

note paragraph 1.1.2:

The service specifications shown here are purely indicative. We are not writing a timetable now for 2032/33. The indicative service specifications were developed in order to model the potential benefits. We will continue to refine and improve our modelled service assumptions going forwards.

Going to page 11 of 13 you will see that the West Coast service from Liverpool to London is proposed to be via Wolverhampton.

The 'Do Minimum' is virtually the current calling pattern of Wolverhampton, Sandwell and Dudley, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Coventry, Watford Junction and Euston by 20 trains per day and will be replaced by 16 trains from Liverpool Lime Street, via Liverpool South Parkway, Runcorn, Crewe, Stafford, Wolverhampton, Sandwell and Dudley, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Coventry, Rugby, Milton Keynes and Watford Junction to Euston.

There will also be a 16 trains a day LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) 'slow' or at a pinch 'semi-fast' service from Wolverhampton to Euston via Northampton as shown on page 10 of 13.


Finally, on Page 10 you will also see that the 18 trains a day on the Matlock and Derby to Nottingham route will divert via 'East Midland HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) (Toton)', plus Nottingham - Derby slow services. 

ST 

 

[grahame]

The Government is to study the feasibility of building a new cycleway that would ^broadly follow^ the proposed high-speed rail line between London, the West Midlands, Manchester and Leeds.

The DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) said the route would ^link communities and rail stations to work, schools and shops as well as countryside and tourist attractions along the way^. The idea has already been dubbed ^Slow speed 2^.

http://www.transportxtra.com/magazines/local_transport_today/news/?ID=35693

[Lee]

From Railnews:

Government steps up HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) campaign

The Government is stepping up its campaign to promote High Speed 2, after several weeks in which various opponents have been mustering their arguments against the scheme.

Although the official budget for both phases is capped at around ^50 billion, including ^7.5 billion for trains as well as a contingency budget of more than ^14 billion, there have been claims from critics that the real cost could be as much as ^80 billion.

This is firmly denied by the Department for Transport, which says the aim is to work within the budget and not to use any of the contingency margin if that proves possible.

The DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) has also confirmed that the present official figure takes into account the additional tunnels which have been agreed on environmental grounds in north west London and the Chilterns.

The Paving Bill, which will authorise expenditure on the project for the near future, has now passed the Committee Stage and is set to receive its Third Reading when Parliament returns.

But in the meantime the Government has been taking the case in favour of HS2 to the West Midlands, with a major event staged in Birmingham today (Friday).

Members of the HS2 Growth Taskforce have been meeting key figures from the region, in the first of a series of roadshows.

One major benefit is said to be the creation of tens of thousands of jobs, including as many as 50,000 in construction alone when the project reaches its peak.

Taskforce member Sir Albert Bore, who is also leader of Birmingham City Council, said: "I am pleased that the HS2 Growth Taskforce is in Birmingham to see all that the city has to offer and to consider how it could benefit from HS2.

"New research by KPMG for the regional transport authority Centro, published today, reveals that HS2 will deliver 50,000 jobs and ^4 billion of economic growth each year for the West Midlands. The figures show the benefits of connecting Birmingham and London are more than doubled when the region is also linked with Manchester and Leeds."

He was accompanied by commercial Treasury secretary Lord Deighton, who also chairs the HS2 Taskforce. He said: "With Birmingham firmly at the heart of the new HS2 network it is a great place to start our roadshows and consider the transformational effect HS2 could have on the city and West Midlands. Redevelopment at Curzon Street as a result of the new station would see the area become a vibrant hub with the potential for retail, leisure and other industries to maximise this opportunity.

^HS2 is not just a project for London or the station cities and the Growth Taskforce is determined to see the benefits stretch far and wide across the country. That is why getting out and meeting with our city and business leaders is so vital and will go a long way to informing our final report to the Government.^

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg has also joined the debate by speaking in favour of a High Speed line. In a speech to the annual dinner of the CBI, he said: "Completing HS2 will help us to tackle the North-South divide that's scarred our country for too long. Giving eight of our biggest cities, across the North and Midlands, the modern rail links they deserve, as well as generating over ^60bn of benefits for the UK^▸ (United Kingdom)."

He also went to reject claims that the ^50 billion budget should be spent on improving existing lines instead, saying: "The alternatives, such as upgrading existing lines, aren't viable answers."

Even so, the promotion of HS2 is set to be countered by more arguments from those who maintain that the scheme is not value for money. Another report on HS2 is due shortly from the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee, which has been critical of the alleged benefits in recent times.

Campaigners have also been claiming that the so-called Gagging Bill, which is intended to put a brake on communications during the year before an election, could also prevent the voicing of legitimate opposition to HS2, although it has been suggested today that Ministers are set to stage a partial u-turn about some of the proposed restrictions next week.

[TonyK]

From Railnews:

Government steps up HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) campaign

The Government is stepping up its campaign to promote High Speed 2, after several weeks in which various opponents have been mustering their arguments against the scheme.

I'm glad they have been paying attention to our comments here. Sir Albert Bore sounds interesting.

[Electric train]

I am also pleased that the slant has been taken away from pure speed to increasing capacity, improving connectivity between the Southeast and the other major conurbation in England.

[eightf48544]

Thanks to ellendune and Sapperton tunnel for answering my qusestion about Wolverhampton and Derby/Nottingham passengers.

I take the point about Beeston passengers who would presumably go to Toton Parkway rather than Nottingham, however I'm still not convinced regarding Wolverhampton passengers. If it's only the Matlock Nottingham trains that are being diverted what about people from Burton who might well change at Derby for London will they want to change twice?

One other thing that came up at SWRS^» (Slough and Windsor Railway Society - about) last night was thai it is beleived HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) will be continental gauge therefore its trains will be very restricted where they can run on the exosting network unless a lot of work is done on linking routes or two types of train are used.

Apart from Japan as far as I can see most LGVs^▸ (Large Goods Vehicle) have services which serve places off the high speed line the dreadful crash in Spain highlighting the problems of running high speed trains on exisiting networks,

However, it looks like HS2 trains will solely run on HS2 requiring a change to onward destinations. Rather than HS2 having more conections to the existing network and services to non HS2 stations using HS2 for the maximum distance.

Am beggining to wonder what HS2 actually adds to the rail network as an interconnected  whole.

[stuving]

HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) is planned as UIC gauge GC^» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line) - the same as HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel). This is the "biggest" UIC gauge, so other UIC gauges fit inside it - rolling stock can be smaller.

The final fleet as costed is: 92 HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) train sets (200m long), and 79 "hybrid" train sets of which 15 are 260 m long. The hybrid (or classic-compatible) trains fit a standard British gauge (presumably C1^▸ ((on coaches) National route restriction)). The HS trains are to be chosen from standard offering for the European market, which must be within gauge GC.

[caliwag]

The Government is to study the feasibility of building a new cycleway that would ^broadly follow^ the proposed high-speed rail line between London, the West Midlands, Manchester and Leeds.

The DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) said the route would ^link communities and rail stations to work, schools and shops as well as countryside and tourist attractions along the way^. The idea has already been dubbed ^Slow speed 2^.

http://www.transportxtra.com/magazines/local_transport_today/news/?ID=35693

Blimey...how unpleasant would that be with trains every 5 minutes or whatever the headway is proposed. Whose daft idea idea is that?...and you need a lot of tree density to attenuate the noise!

[eightf48544]

The DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) said the route would ^link communities and rail stations to work, schools and shops as well as countryside and tourist attractions along the way^. The idea has already been dubbed ^Slow speed 2^.

http://www.transportxtra.com/magazines/local_transport_today/news/?ID=35693

But I thought that HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) doesn't have many stations so how can a cycle way along side it link rail stations. I'm not riding my bike 50 miles from Milton Keynes to catch a train on HS2!

[Red Squirrel]

The Government is to study the feasibility of building a new cycleway that would ^broadly follow^ the proposed high-speed rail line between London, the West Midlands, Manchester and Leeds.

The DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) said the route would ^link communities and rail stations to work, schools and shops as well as countryside and tourist attractions along the way^. The idea has already been dubbed ^Slow speed 2^.

http://www.transportxtra.com/magazines/local_transport_today/news/?ID=35693

Blimey...how unpleasant would that be with trains every 5 minutes or whatever the headway is proposed. Whose daft idea idea is that?...and you need a lot of tree density to attenuate the noise!

Not unpleasant at all, I'd say.

A major difference between rail and road noise is that whereas road noise is constant, rail noise is episodic. You'd be able to hear the birds singing most of the time, and there would be no exhaust fumes.

I think it would compare pretty favourably to cycleways alongside dual carriageways - and they're better than cycling along the road!

[TonyK]

Blimey...how unpleasant would that be with trains every 5 minutes or whatever the headway is proposed. Whose daft idea idea is that?...and you need a lot of tree density to attenuate the noise!

At least some of us would find it interesting. Most likely, we will find that the primary purpose would be for access for maintenance vehicles. with cycling allowed otherwise.

More importantly, Patrick McLoughlin has come out fighting. In another article in today's Sunday Times, he gives some robust arguments in favour of HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)). Read the whole article at the link. The most important part, IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion), is:

The Conservative begins with a startling admission. Ministers were ^wrong^ to try to sell HS2 to a sceptical public on the basis of its speed and shorter journey times. He goes further, describing the 20-minute reduction on a journey between London and Birmingham on HS2 as ^almost irrelevant^.

 Does McLoughlin agree with those who believe HS2 ^ currently projected to cost ^50bn ^ to be an expensive folly? Anything but.

 In an attempt to regain the initiative, McLoughlin says the key argument for HS2 is, in fact, the prevention of a looming train overcrowding crisis.

 A new rail network, with up to 18 trains running every hour, is vital for easing the pressure on inter-city lines, he says, before explaining how passenger journeys have doubled in the past 20 years to 1.5bn in 2012-13 and will continue to grow.

 ^Every day we have 4,000 people arriving at London Euston station who are standing. That^s today,^ he says. ^We have 5,000 people arriving at Birmingham New Street who are standing. We have got to address the capacity issue.^

His bold use of the C-word gives me cause for optimism. His main argument is that we do not need a new high-speed railway, but we DO need a new railway, and it might as well be built to a high-speed specification. This problem will not go away, and will get worse with every new delay.

There is a poll accompanying the report, which shows that support for HS2 has fallen 6 points to 29% in the last two months. I shall watch with interest over the next few weeks and see if Mr McLaughlin's new charm offensive is enough to turn that trend around. There is also a short animation of what the new rolling stock may look like inside and out.

[bobm]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page)

HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) high-speed rail benefits dwindle as costs soar - MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament)

The estimated benefits of the planned HS2 high-speed rail link are dwindling as costs rise, a group of MPs has said.

The Public Accounts Committee said the Department for Transport was failing to present a "convincing strategic case".

The committee added that it was instead based on "fragile numbers, out-of-date data and assumptions which do not reflect real life".

Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin insisted the case for HS2 was "absolutely clear".

'Constrained times'
 
The committee said there was no evidence the line would help economies around the country instead of attracting even more business into London.

A target of getting the required legislation in place by 2015 was unrealistic, the MPs added.

The committee also wanted to know how quickly the department would fill gaps in commercial and major project expertise among its personnel.

The MPs' report said: "The department has yet to demonstrate that this is the best way to spend ^50bn on rail investment in these constrained times."

They said out-of-date assumptions included not taking into account that people could work on trains using laptops and other mobile devices.

Committee chairwoman Margaret Hodge said: "The pattern so far has been for costs to spiral - from more than ^16bn to ^21bn plus for phase one - and the estimated benefits to dwindle."

Mr McLoughlin rejected the PAC's findings and said without HS2 key rail routes would be "overwhelmed" by rising passenger numbers.

"The project will free up vital space on our railways for passengers and freight, generate hundreds of thousands of jobs and deliver better connections between our towns and cities," he said.

'Plough ahead'
 
The government will publish its own report this week arguing that HS2 will generate billions of pounds for the economy.

BBC transport correspondent Richard Westcott said the committee's conclusions were the latest in a long line of criticisms of the project.

Official estimates of the cost were increased by ^10bn to ^42.6bn earlier this year and there is opposition to HS2 in many communities along the proposed route.

The Treasury's top civil servant, Sir Nicholas Macpherson, has said there is "no blank cheque" for HS2 and the National Audit Office has warned the economic benefits of the project are unclear.

The high-speed line would run between London and Birmingham from 2026 before being extended to Manchester and Leeds from 2033.

Hilary Wharf, director of campaign group HS2 Action Alliance, said: "We have no doubt that the government will continue to plough ahead with HS2 despite PAC's devastating criticism - that there is no convincing strategic case and out-of-date information and wrong assumptions were used which do not reflect real life.

"How much longer do they think the tax payer will listen to their protestations that this ^50bn white elephant is vital to the future of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom)'s economy?"

[TonyK]

We now have the two sides of the argument in sharp focus, and the real debate can now begin. The PAC's stance seems to be Lord Adonis' classic cold feet syndrome. Mr McLoughlin's case is strengthened by finally arguing for the right reason. Margaret Hodge likes the sound of her own voice. She is though correct in saying that costs have increased. What she doesn't point out is what it will cost if we put the decision off for 5 years, as in Crossrail, first mooted in 1941, when it would have cost a few hundred quid.

Mr McLoughlin has an unlikely supporter. HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)), Now!, I say. I know a white elephant when I see one, and this is not one. The Big Numbers is what gives this project a scary face, nothing else. Bristol Metrobust, on the other hand...

[chuffed]

Agree with you about Margaret Hodge. Patrick McLoughlin though comes across as too much of a grey bureaucrat, and his argument needs a more colourful  character to carry the banner ...Lord Adonis has the sharp elbows and the personality  needed to do this. It would also be a very clear  expression of broad  support across party lines.