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Author Topic: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion  (Read 394079 times)
Electric train
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« Reply #450 on: September 09, 2013, 09:50:31 »

There is a lot of hype about escalating costs, its difficult at moment to pin the exact budget because not all of the route study work has been done (its still in progress now)

There are a number of major railway infrastructure projects being carried out now that are to budget and on or head of time, Reading Station, Thameslink, Crossrail and not only that they are World leading projects.

Our political chattering classes do not want to put trust into the engineers and project manager mainly I feel because they (the political chattering classes) will be shown to be lacking
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« Reply #451 on: September 09, 2013, 10:24:37 »

Hopefully we will now get a clear idea of what HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) is for and more impotantly to my mind how does it fit in with the exisitng network?

You will see form my previous posts my misgivings about the current plans with their stand alone terminals in Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds plus a few Parkway stations someway from the cities they are meant to serve.

I agree that we need more capacity on the network as whole but most of that requirment is in the old NSE (Network South East) area and around our urban conurbations, plus ratherly oddly in the West Country maybe peninsulars lend themselves to rail transport.  It is platform capacity and train length especialy in cities that is a major constraint, I'm not sure quite how HS2 addresses this problem.

I live by the GWML (Great Western Main Line) in the TV which is supposed to be up to capacity but even  with a therectical 2 min headway on auto it is rare that we get two trains following that closely behind each other so there is pleanty of capacity on the plain track it is terminal capacity at Paddington and junction and platform capacity at Reading, which fortunatley is now being rectified .

There are a  lot of places where relatively minor work could greatly increase capacity, abolishing all single lead junctions some redoubling of single lines coupled with increased train length would considerably increase capacity in many places.

Just think if every single car 153 service was a 2 car you double capacity on that route at a stroke and every 2 car a 3 car you increase by a third. IT should be possible with a bit of reinstatement work on exisitng platforms, not even lengthening, for most services to be at least 4 car on most routes. Look at the succes of the Penryn loop.

However, we are still faced with the problem of increasing capacity within our conurbations. True tram trains like Saarbruken. Kassel or the Karlsruhr system where the the trams do street running through the city centre serving the Hbf and join existing heavy rail suburban routes out of the town centre. Similar to Manchester but with shared use of the heavy rail with trams, heavy rail trains including freight.  
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« Reply #452 on: September 09, 2013, 19:40:55 »

Just think if every single car 153 service was a 2 car you double capacity on that route at a stroke and every 2 car a 3 car you increase by a third. IT should be possible with a bit of reinstatement work on existing platforms, not even lengthening, for most services to be at least 4 car on most routes. Look at the success of the Penryn loop.


A minor point of pedantry - if you increase a 2-car to a 3-car, you add a half, not a third.

All that you say is true, but I think that taking some of the pressure off the WCML (West Coast Main Line) can be nothing but a good thing. There are plans for the "electric spine", linking the new deepwater container port at Avonmouth with the industrial hinterlands, and for better connections between Southampton and the places that want the goods imported through their. HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)), properly designed and built, would make things like these more easily achievable, as well as 20 minutes of the ride to Brum.

Margaret Hodge, though, was on the radio saying we need to look to make connections such as Bristol to Liverpool, something that made me wonder if she has any idea what she is on about. Unless she is proposing to tunnel through Snowdonia and under the Mersey, whilst simultaneously upgrading the Heart of Wales route. You can get from Bristol to Liverpool. I have done two different ways - the long, slow, pretty way via Newport, and the "fast" way, where you stand all the way from Temple Meads to New Street for the first leg.

I agree with Electric train also. Network Rail is proving more adept at keeping costs and timescales under control. In this case, the body that risks throwing a spanner in the works is Mrs H's Public Accounts Committee. It would be wrong for such a major project to be left to HS2 Ltd without scrutiny, of course, but launching into attack mode, seemingly without most of the facts, is not helpful.

Now if she wants a rubbish white elephant transport project based on dubious calculations of benefits to castigate and ride roughshod over, then if she comes to Bristol, I will show her one.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 20:04:53 by Four Track, Now! » Logged

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« Reply #453 on: September 09, 2013, 20:16:26 »

I live by the GWML (Great Western Main Line) in the TV which is supposed to be up to capacity but even  with a therectical 2 min headway on auto it is rare that we get two trains following that closely behind each other so there is pleanty of capacity on the plain track it is terminal capacity at Paddington and junction and platform capacity at Reading, which fortunatley is now being rectified .

That may be the case on the GWML, but you only get the 2 min headway all the time if all the trains go at exactly the same speed and stop at the same time.  As it is stops are not all the same distance apart and stopping and starting a heavy goods train is not exactly fuel efficient or easy for that matter.  So you are never going to achieve it on a mixed traffic railway line the GWML. 

However, HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) does not pretend to do anything for capacity on the GWML.  The WCML (West Coast Main Line) and other lines going north are the problem.  The WCML has even more diverse traffic because there are more complex routes, more freight and more stopping patterns.   
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« Reply #454 on: September 09, 2013, 21:45:31 »

There are a number of major railway infrastructure projects being carried out now that are to budget and on or head of time, Reading Station, Thameslink, Crossrail and not only that they are World leading projects.

Reading and Crossrail. So far so good time-wise. I've no idea about budgets with those though.

Thameslink. Not so easy to say definitively that that is on time. It really depends on when you started the clock. Thameslink 2000 anyone? And in June of this year the National Audit Office sounded a note of caution about the delivery of the whole programme by 2018, in particular because of the delay in ordering the necessary rolling stock.

http://www.nao.org.uk/report/progress-in-delivering-the-thameslink-programme/

Optimistically cautious or cautiously optimistic?  Wink
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« Reply #455 on: September 09, 2013, 21:49:53 »

Reading and Crossrail. So far so good time-wise. I've no idea about budgets with those though.

Thameslink. Not so easy to say definitively that that is on time. It really depends on when you started the clock. Thameslink 2000 anyone? And in June of this year the National Audit Office sounded a note of caution about the delivery of the whole programme by 2018, in particular because of the delay in ordering the necessary rolling stock.

Ok so the bit the rail industry is delivering is on time (starting from the point the politicians actually gave the go ahead). The bit that DfT» (Department for Transport - about) is delivering is the problem.  Interesting.

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« Reply #456 on: September 09, 2013, 22:15:24 »

There are a number of major railway infrastructure projects being carried out now that are to budget and on or head of time, Reading Station, Thameslink, Crossrail and not only that they are World leading projects.

Reading and Crossrail. So far so good time-wise. I've no idea about budgets with those though.


Crossrail is either on time, or 3, 15, 30, or 56 years late, depending on which proposal is seen as firing the starting gun. As with a lot of other schemes, it may be a bit late, but it's probably a good thing some of the earlier ideas didn't get built. They were smaller in scope, and would not have had the advantages of the most modern equipment and techniques.
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« Reply #457 on: September 09, 2013, 23:27:32 »

I know a white elephant when I see one, and this is not one. The Big Numbers is what gives this project a scary face, nothing else. Bristol Metrobust, on the other hand...
Now if she wants a rubbish white elephant transport project based on dubious calculations of benefits to castigate and ride roughshod over, then if she comes to Bristol, I will show her one.
How do you define 'white elephant'. If it means an expensive scheme that is hardly used, then HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) is not one. If it means an expensive scheme with some fairly major flaws, but still gets heavy usage, then HS2 might be.

Ok so the bit the rail industry is delivering is on time (starting from the point the politicians actually gave the go ahead). The bit that DfT» (Department for Transport - about) is delivering is the problem.  Interesting.
Same story with IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) as far as I can tell. Hitachi will probablly do a decent job of building the trains, but DfT think they should be replacing 2+8 IC125s with 5-car MUs (Multiple Unit) and replacing IC225s rather than covering PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) - Oxford fast services with IEP trains.

I agree that we need more capacity on the network as whole but most of that requirment is in the old NSE (Network South East) area and around our urban conurbations
If the capacity issues are mostly in the NSE area (personally I'd guess the ones that can't be solved by train lengthening are mostly in the London area) then perhaps the HS2 price tag could be better spent.

Instead of building all of HS2 straight away, why not build a hub of a nationwide HSR network: my suggestion of a four-track Old Oak Common - Stratford International version of the 'Euston Cross' proposal. In the shorter term, class 390s, 395s, IEP trains etc. could run through London rather than terminating. Later, you can extend outwards, from Old Oak to Heathrow/Reading and Birmingham Central. Then from Heathrow/Reading to Southampton/Bristol and Birmingham Central to Manchester Piccadilly/Mayfield. At this point you could order 200mph trains to utilise the new lines and send the 390s/395s etc. back onto the classic lines. Then you could extend from Manchester Piccadilly/Mayfield to Preston/Glasgow, from Bristol to Plymouth and Stratford International to York.

How would the cost, and capacity benifits, of the 4-track Old Oak - 'Euston Cross' - Stratford proposal compare to HS2?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 23:40:15 by Rhydgaled » Logged

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« Reply #458 on: September 10, 2013, 03:19:12 »

There are plans for the "electric spine", linking the new deepwater container port at Avonmouth with the industrial hinterlands, and for better connections between Southampton and the places that want the goods imported through their...

The DfT» (Department for Transport - about)'s version of the Electric Spine in the 2012 HLOS (High Level Output Specification) has no mention of Avonmouth at all, just the routes north from Southampton.  Where are you getting that description from?

Paul
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« Reply #459 on: September 11, 2013, 10:21:19 »

From The Guardian:

Quote from: The Guardian
HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) rail project will provide ^15bn boost, transport minister claims

Patrick McLoughlin to make speech in Birmingham where there has been a mixed reaction to the high-speed link

Patrick McLoughlin, the transport secretary, will on Wednesday make the economic case for the HS2 rail project by insisting that the high-speed link will give an annual ^15bn boost to the economy, with the north and Midlands gaining at least double the benefit gained by the south.

In a speech in Birmingham, McLoughlin is planning to depict HS2 as a "heart bypass" for congested train lines and roads, claiming that speed will be a secondary concern, though the link will reportedly reduce the train journey between London and Birmingham to just 45 minutes.

"Speed is not the main reason for building the new railway. The main reason we need HS2 is as a heart bypass for the clogged arteries of our transport system," McLoughlin will say.

There was mixed reaction in Birmingham, one of the cities most affected, to the government's insistence that it would ease busy train lines.

While the city council, business leaders, big companies and local transport chiefs are campaigning strongly for the multibillion-pound scheme, it is clear that smaller business owners, commuters and many of the general public remain to be convinced about the project.

Steve Brittan, president of the Birmingham chamber of commerce, and managing director of BSA Machine Tools in the city, said it was vital for the region that more effective transport links were created.

"We're at the centre of the country and we're surrounded by transport difficulties," Brittan said. "The roads are full, the trains packed. We don't have the capacity to get people around effectively. On the roads we're stuck between lorries and white vans while our railway system is more than 100 years old and too small to work."

Geoff Inskip, chief executive of the regional transport authority Centro, said that without HS2 the west coast main line, which links London to the Midlands, the north of England and central belt of Scotland, would be full by the early 2020s and services would face closure.

"We need more capacity or the system will become too crowded to function," he said.

The chamber and Centro are part of Go-HS2, a group in the city campaigning for the project.

Also signed up are the Labour-led city council, which believes the line will create up to 50,000 jobs in the West Midlands and boost its economy to the tune of ^4bn a year, Birmingham airport, and the NEC» (National Exhibition Centre - about) exhibition centre.

A passionate HS2 backer is Deborah Smith, who runs a PR (Public Relations) firm from Solihull and is behind the Hands up for High Speed 2 website. A relative newcomer to the West Midlands, she believes HS2 will help bolster the region and stop talented young people feeling they had to leave for London. "I feel that HS2 is a once-in-a-generation chance to do something bold to really invest in the regions outside London," she said.

Smith accepts her motive is to help her two sons, now aged three and five, to grow up in a prosperous and forward-thinking area of which they can be proud.

In Birmingham's jewellery quarter, most small-business owners were more cynical.

Eric Goodby, 54, who runs an engraving and jewellery design firm with his father, Ken, 81, claimed Birmingham would be turned into a glorified dormitory town for London commuters.

A few doors along, Carl Longshaw, a metal spinner who produces goods ranging from hubcaps to replica FA Cups, dismissed HS2 as a terrible idea. "It's a white elephant, too expensive and it goes too close to my home in Tamworth," he said.

Colin Ashford, who makes cufflinks, medals and regalia for Freemasons, in a Victorian workshop, doubted the government's figures on jobs and growth. "I'm not sure where they get them from," he said.

But Andy Williams, manager of the Creative Watch Company, was enthusiastic. "It would be good for the city and good for the region. Anything that has the potential to get more people here has to be welcomed."

Commuters on the 7.49am Wolverhampton to Birmingham New Street service on Tuesday morning were also divided. The London Midland train arrived 14 minutes late, partly because it was stuck behind a late-running Virgin train from Manchester to London.

Sally Gray, a shop worker, said she was fed up failing to get a seat on the train. "And you also have to factor in an extra 10 minutes every day because it can be late. I'd be all for the high-speed service if it frees up this line."

Simon Jones, an office worker, said he tended to believe not ministers but the public accounts committee. "All you hear is that it is going to be over-budget and won't really work. I'm deeply sceptical. I'm not sure we're good enough at delivering huge projects like this. I hope I'm proved wrong."

This week, the committee blasted the HS2 project, claiming it was beset by spiralling costs, lack of expertise and unrealistic delivery timetables.

And:

Quote from: The Guardian
HS2 isn't the next Olympics. It's a domestic Afghan war

In high-speed rail as in war, when Cameron and Osborne take refuge in the flag it is a safe bet they know they have lost

The plan for a new high-speed train has become the Afghan war of British domestic policy. There is no more debate about whether it makes sense. The only question is how long can its apologists hold out, as costs soar and supporters slip away in the night. Has Patrick McLoughlin, the brave, embattled transport secretary, the guts to tell his bosses in Downing Street that the line cannot be held and retreat is in order?

The latest body blow to the benighted project came on Monday from parliament's "unofficial opposition", Margaret Hodge's ever trenchant public accounts committee. It dismissed HS2 as based on "fragile numbers, out-of-date data and assumptions that do not reflect reality". This follows a scathing report from the National Audit Office. Even the official cost has risen to ^50bn, with the Institute of Economic Affairs putting it at ^80bn. To Hodge's committee, that there are better uses for such lavish transport spending is beyond argument.

Ministers are trapped. They are surrounded by a praetorian guard of public relations and project consultants hired with ^253m of taxpayers' money. This political-industrial complex is the sort that develops behind every "grand project"; firms know they will lose a fortune if the project is cancelled. Meanwhile David Cameron and George Osborne, scarred by U-turns everywhere, are determined to portray HS2 as the next Olympics. They cannot bear to climb down from something so spectacular, so glorious and so "tomorrow". Like aircraft carriers and nuclear power stations, high-speed trains are toys for Tory boys, no questions asked.

In a desperate attempt to regain enemy ground, McLoughlin staged a weekend breakout. He said that high-speed rail was not, after all, about high speed but "capacity". His train from Derby was "bloody crackers". It irked him that no new railway to the north has been built "for 120 years", which seemed reason enough to blow ^50bn.

Meanwhile Cameron, never knowingly out-cliched, said HS2 was "vital to Britain if we are going to succeed in the global race". Osborne declared himself "passionate" about it. In infrastructure, as in war, when politicians take refuge in the flag and national prestige it is a safe bet they know they have lost.

HS2 is crazy. The biggest infrastructure project in British history is for "club class" passengers on just one line, requiring a donation of ^1,700 from every taxpayer, excluding revenue subsidy (^3,000 if the IEA is right). This in turn has been calculated at a third of a million pounds for each potential traveller diverted from the present line.

High-speed rail is no longer tomorrow's transport but yesterday's. Its development has ground to a halt even in long-distance France and Spain as using too much energy and too much subsidy. It has all but vanished from consideration in America. The benefit is to a small number of premium fare travellers, minimising the relief of capacity on existing services. HS1 (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) from the Channel Tunnel to London may delight those few who use it, but the National Audit Office points out its passenger forecasts were "hopelessly overoptimistic".

McLoughlin may direct attention to capacity, but that is not how this line was planned or justified. If capacity is the issue, everyone knows that intercity first class is not under pressure. Commuter lines in London, the north and the west desperately need ^50bn, not to mention the road network, used by far more businesses than rail.

Lines into Euston are not London's most crowded, compared with Waterloo and Paddington ^ the latter host to the two most overcrowded services, from Henley and Didcot. The rise in intercity passenger numbers is slackening off. As for pretending that HS2 will help "compete" with China and Japan, their trains are far more crowded than ours.

Expanding rail capacity is costly and complex, but not as much as driving a brand new pathway to Euston. Here it will not even link with Heathrow, Crossrail or the continent via St Pancras. It will not even go to Birmingham New Street. It will blitz much of London's south Camden because decades ago a rail planner thought businessmen deserved a more comfortable trip to Euston, and no one had the gumption to think otherwise. The project is completely out of date. There are not just better ways of spending money on trains, every other way makes more sense.

A book out this week is the closest politics gets to pornography. It is called The Blunders of Our Governments, by those veteran voyeurs of politicians at play, Anthony King and Ivor Crewe. It analyses decisions ^ such as on poll tax, child support, ID cards and individual learning accounts ^ that were taken for the best of reasons, only to be blighted by the failure of those in power to show the guts to call a halt when they could see things had gone wrong.

Pride, ambition, a desperation to succeed and a terror of the press drive those charged with spending public money ever deeper into the mire. None of their officials dares tell truth to power. Lobbyists, especially computer salesmen, clamour for more. Only money talks, and the talk is from those getting the money, not those supplying it.

As in war, true courage lies not in splurging ever more blood and treasure to mask yet another mistake. It lies in stopping, thinking and, just sometimes, admitting a policy was wrong. The curse of British politics is not a U-turn. It is treating a U-turn as a weakness rather than a strength.
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« Reply #460 on: September 11, 2013, 10:37:15 »

From GlobalRailNews:

Quote from: GlobalRailNews
Regions to benefit most from HS2 (The next High Speed line(s))

A new report has suggested that Britain^s regions would benefit most from HS2, quashing claims that the high-speed line would only bring greater prosperity the Southeast.

KPMG believes the line would boost the UK (United Kingdom)^s economy by ^15 billion a year, with Birmingham, Leeds and Manchester set to experience the greatest economic boost.

The report suggests that Birmingham could see its economy grow by between 2.1 and 4.2 per cent, Leeds by around 1.6 per cent and Manchester between 0.8 and 1.7 per cent.

It predicts that London would benefit least, with growth of just 0.5 per cent.

Richard Threlfall, KPMG^s head for infrastructure, building and construction, said: ^There have been repeated calls for a business case for the HS2 scheme focused on jobs, productivity and growth.

^KPMG^s analysis forms a key part of that business case, setting out the economic impact across the country of the HS2 scheme. It shows beyond reasonable doubt that HS2 brings net benefits to the country of many times the scheme^s cost. It shows the UK will be ^15 billion a year better off with HS2, recovering the cost of the scheme within just a few years.^

KPMG^s analysis follows a report by the Public Accounts Committee further fuelling the argument against the new line.

The report argues that HS2 has not yet set out a convincing case for that the benefits of the line would outweigh the project^s potential ^42.6 billion price tag.

Welcoming the KPMG^s report, a spokesman for HS2 said: ^This KPMG Report makes a hugely significant contribution to the progress of HS2. Increased rail capacity, with faster and more reliable connectivity, will contribute to the economy right across the UK.

^The North and Midlands are set to gain at least double the benefit for the south.. There is now clear evidence of the economic boost HS2 represents in terms of jobs, productivity and growth. HS2 is the right project at the right time.^

The report signals something of a fightback against a flood of negative reports from national media outlets. A battle which will continue later this morning when Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin speaks at the Institute of Civil Engineers to again stress the need for HS2.

The managing director of consultancy WSP in the UK believed that HS2 ^doomsayers^ had failed to look beyond the cost of the project.

Mark Naysmith said: ^HS2 is not simply a rail project, the development opportunities around new stations alone will be a major catalyst for regional growth.

^Furthermore, no one has yet to come up with a realistic alternative that can serve the same purpose. Ploughing the money into existing lines just isn^t justifiable and doing nothing is clearly not an option if we want to remain competitive and progressive.^

From Rail Network:

Quote from: Rail Network
HS2 opponents challenge fears of railway capacity crisis

Fears that Britain^s railway network will be full if HS2 is not built have been disputed by opponents of the project.

The HS2 Action Alliance says industry and Government figures undercut ministerial arguments that the high-speed line is vital to tackle an overcrowding crisis.

Over the past week ministers have tried to shift the argument for HS2 away from speed to the need to provide more seats because trains will be full.

The first stage of the 351-mile project will see trains running to Birmingham, easing pressure on the West Coast Main Line into Euston.

But according to Network Rail, figures produced two years ago long distance trains coming into Euston are only 60 per cent full during the morning peak.

This contrasts with Paddington, where trains are 99 per cent full and Waterloo, where the figure is 91 per cent.

Other figures, which the Department for Transport previously refused to release, emerged during the judicial review proceedings brought by HS2 opponents.

They also raised questions about the level of demand, including data showing that evening peak trains out of Euston were 52.2 per cent full.

The DfT» (Department for Transport - about) has said its latest estimates show that trains leaving Euston during the evening peak could carry as many standing as seated passengers unless HS2 is built.

But according to the HS2 Action Alliance studies the figures produced by Virgin, the current operators on the line, show the rapid growth in demand is over.

An alternative approach, advocated by the 51M group of local authorities who challenged the scheme, suggests space could be provided by converting one first class carriage to standard and lengthening trains from nine to 12 cars.

Extra services could be laid on by eliminating three pinch points between Euston and Crewe.

The problem of overcrowding faced by commuters from Milton Keynes, one of the major existing problems, could be solved by allowing them to use Virgin Trains services which only allow passengers to disembark.
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« Reply #461 on: September 11, 2013, 10:46:41 »

Just been watching Patrick McLoughlin's speech.

A few extremely good points raised especially about the infrastructure on the west coast mainline in particular the recent argument between Virgin and Network rail over direct services between London & Shrewsbury/Blackpool. The issue of overhead wiring on the route has been raised.

(I liked  his thrase  "try and run the M1 up the old kent road" )

I agree a lot of the suggested alternatives will probably be even more disruptive than HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) such as widiening the west coast mainline through Watford etc.
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« Reply #462 on: September 11, 2013, 11:12:15 »

From The Guardian:

Quote from: The Guardian
HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) isn't the next Olympics. It's a domestic Afghan war

...As in war, true courage lies not in splurging ever more blood and treasure to mask yet another mistake. It lies in stopping, thinking and, just sometimes, admitting a policy was wrong. The curse of British politics is not a U-turn. It is treating a U-turn as a weakness rather than a strength.


Well Simon Jenkins would say that, wouldn't he? No-one can accuse him of inconsistency on this - he's been firmly in the 'anti' camp since the scheme was approved.

Looking back over his column, it think it would be an exaggeration to call him a BANANA (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone); he's more of a BANBSIAOSSI (Build Absolutely Nothing But Spend It All On Social Security Instead).

I'm not saying we should dismiss this 'anti' press, but I think it's worth checking who's behind these articles - are these voices just a small number of shouty people who think they can smell blood, or is there really a groundswell of opinion turning against HS2? My suspicion is that few people are actually changing their minds, but that the anti camp think now is the time to get out the powder they have been keeping dry.
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« Reply #463 on: September 11, 2013, 11:37:24 »

I'm not saying we should dismiss this 'anti' press, but I think it's worth checking who's behind these articles - are these voices just a small number of shouty people who think they can smell blood, or is there really a groundswell of opinion turning against HS2 (The next High Speed line(s))? My suspicion is that few people are actually changing their minds, but that the anti camp think now is the time to get out the powder they have been keeping dry.

I'm simply aiming to put views from both sides of the argument across when posting articles. I'd agree that some correspondents have rather more "form" than others, but I'll leave it down to forum members to make their own minds up when reading them, as indeed you have on this occasion.
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« Reply #464 on: September 11, 2013, 12:11:10 »

I'm not saying we should dismiss this 'anti' press, but I think it's worth checking who's behind these articles - are these voices just a small number of shouty people who think they can smell blood, or is there really a groundswell of opinion turning against HS2 (The next High Speed line(s))? My suspicion is that few people are actually changing their minds, but that the anti camp think now is the time to get out the powder they have been keeping dry.

I'm simply aiming to put views from both sides of the argument across when posting articles. I'd agree that some correspondents have rather more "form" than others, but I'll leave it down to forum members to make their own minds up when reading them, as indeed you have on this occasion.

I wasn't meaning to criticise; I just think that (for the benefit of those who may not study the form book as you or I might) it is worth pointing out who wrote these quotes, as well as which newspaper they were published in - particularly when they are opinion columns. 'Who is saying it' is every bit as important as 'what they are saying'; for example if Dr Richard BeechingWellings of the IEA said that 'there may be a case for HS2' (or indeed for government spending money on anything) that would be truly astonishing.
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