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Author Topic: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion  (Read 394022 times)
JayMac
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« Reply #495 on: October 21, 2013, 22:14:36 »

Has anyone already posted this?

It probably comes as no surprise to forum regulars that, over recent months, I've moved off the HS2 fence and set foot in the anti- camp.

However, there may just be some merit in David Higgins idea of starting HS2 in the north.

The baton was picked up by Baroness Kramer, our new Minister of State for transport, who was most recently on the commission for banking standards.

The perils of skim reading. It took two looks at this post for me to realise it said 'banking' and not 'baking'. Embarrassed

I've recently learnt that I need glasses for general eyesight improvement. Not used to wearing them at all times yet. Perhaps that explains.  Huh
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« Reply #496 on: October 22, 2013, 07:11:44 »

I think you can claim an exclusive there, Rhydgaled.
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eightf48544
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« Reply #497 on: October 22, 2013, 07:45:55 »

As bignosemac has posted: It probably comes as no surprise to forum regulars that, over recent months, I've moved off the HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) fence and set foot in the anti- camp. I am coming to a similar opinion.

This is based on it's links with the existung system in particular the fact taht it servres terminal staions in Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds which means passengers from places like Wolverhampton Bradford which currently have through London trains will now have to change to get on HS2, lessening the time savings compared with a through train. It's even worse for passengers from Sheffield they have to get to Meadowhall and from Derby and Nottingham, Toton Parkway.

However, the people it does benefit are  from stations between Edinburgh and York on the ECML (East Coast Main Line) and Glasgow and Preston WCML (West Coast Main Line). Who will make substatial savings to London.

Bignaosemac also says, however, there may just be some merit in David Higgins idea of starting HS2 in the north. The only point i would make is where would it feed into the exisitng netwrk once it gets to the joining point of the Manchester and Leeds branches North of Birmingham otherwise you have to wait until it was complete all the way to Euston.

I would be much more supportive if Euston was an underground through station to HS1 (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) and Birmingham Manchester and Leeds were through staions with connectons into the existing network.

In fact Birmingham really ought to be on route
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JayMac
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« Reply #498 on: October 22, 2013, 10:46:05 »

A list of articles about how HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) will have a negative impact on the local economies of various areas in the West and South West:

Hidden figures show ^20m blow to B&NES economy from HS2 high-speed rail link The Bath Chronicle.

North Devon to take ^18 million hit under high speed rail plans Western Morning News.

HS2 is blow for Exeter's economy as city set to lose ^14.15m Exeter Express & Echo
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« Reply #499 on: October 22, 2013, 11:16:50 »

I would be much more supportive if Euston was an underground through station to HS1 (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) and Birmingham Manchester and Leeds were through staions with connectons into the existing network.

In fact Birmingham really ought to be on route
My sentiments almost exactly. The only thing is that I'm not sure the Leeds spur should be included at all.

I think the fact that the ICWC (InterCity West Coast) trains from Chester/Holyhead, Liverpool and Manchester to Euston don't go through Birmingham is a major fault with the existing WCML (West Coast Main Line). Of course it makes sense to do things the way they are with the existing infrustructure, but if you're building a new line you should be improving on the WCML not just duplicating it like-for-like. A stop at Birmingham en-route on Manchester/Liverpool/Chester services would be great, and could make a case for through trains from Manchester and Liverpool to Paris and Brussels.

An underground through station in London (the 'Euston Cross') proposal would be good also, so some trains from HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) can run through to Ashford/Dover.

Personally, I think there should be passive provision for additional capacity to be added between Old Oak Common through to Stratford International. That would allow a later HighSpeed project on a south-west - north-east axis, say Heathrow to Stansted initially (although Stansted airport would be served by a spur onto the classic lines, rather than a new HS (High Speed (short for HSS (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) station). Later, the north-east line could extend to either York or Leeds and the south-west line could be extended from Heathrow either to Southampton or somewhere in the Chippenham/Bath area where it could have links into the line to Bath and Bristol and the line to south Wales. The latter would pass south of Reading with spurs onto classic lines both east and west of Reading, to allow some trains to go via Reading. This would also provide a western rail access to Heathrow that keeps off the GWML (Great Western Main Line).
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paul7575
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« Reply #500 on: October 22, 2013, 11:58:26 »

David Higgins statement was reported differently elsewhere:

Quote
High Speed 2^s incoming chairman David Higgins said he would look at speeding up the delivery of the ^21.2bn second leg of the scheme.

Speaking to the House of Commons transport select committee on Monday, he said he would like to build the leg from the West Midlands to Manchester and Leeds faster than the current timetable.

He said: ^I think if you are in the North you would want to see the benefits earlier. I do not think people want to wait until 2032 to 2035 to see the benefits and that is something I will look closely at.^

http://www.cnplus.co.uk/news/sectors/rail/sir-david-higgins-hs2-second-phase-could-be-built-early/8654324.article

'Starting in the north' is contradicted in the last paragraph of the earlier quote anyway.  I certainly don't think it has any legs, and contrary to bnm's view above, I don't think it is actually Higgins' idea at all.  What he's probably done (without searching for the TSC transcript) is to answer the question posed tactfully whilst avoiding saying the idea was a complete none starter...

Paul

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caliwag
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« Reply #501 on: October 22, 2013, 14:11:03 »

It's a bizarre idea to start in the North anyway as the argument has moved from speed to 'full to capacity' out of Euston...well there's no way any commuting lines in the North that are 'full to capacity', and certainly that could not be solved by a few more or longer units.
There was also the 'straw-clutching' argument about the food supply chain breaking down because of lack of capacity...didn't exactly set the world alight that one!
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JayMac
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« Reply #502 on: October 28, 2013, 18:29:26 »

From the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

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HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) alternative 'would mean years of rail disruption'

A government-commissioned report says the alternative to a new HS2 high speed rail link would see 14 years of weekend route closures and longer journeys.

The report, by Network Rail and Atkins, says upgrading existing rail lines would severely affect the East Coast, Midland and West Coast mainlines.

It says that would double travel times between Leeds and London.

The study will inform the government's updated business case for HS2, which will be presented on Tuesday.

It will be the fifth official presentation given by the government on HS2.

Dispute

HS2 is designed to shorten journey times between London and the Midlands and the north of England, but has attracted stiff opposition from some quarters because of doubts that the cost - last estimated at ^42.6bn - will bring sufficient benefit.

Those living along its route also fear the disruption it will bring to their areas.

A previous report in September, by the consultants KPMG, said the project would be markedly beneficial to the UK (United Kingdom) economy, and boost overall growth by 0.8%.

However, that report failed to convince critics and KPMG itself included a caveat which said it had made the "implicit assumption" that transport connectivity was the only supply-side constraint to business location, and that it had ignored other possible constraints to growth, like labour or land shortages.

Some critics of HS2 see a plan to improve the existing lines as a better use of public money. But the report says that, in total, this would require 2,770 weekend closures involving 144,000 hours of work.

The BBC's transport correspondent, Richard Westcott, says he has been told it would cost ^20bn to upgrade the UK's three existing north-south train lines.

Modelling a typical weekend, the report argues that the journey time from London to Leeds could be increased by two hours and 10 minutes to more than four and a half hours while the work is going on.

A journey between Huntingdon and Peterborough would be doubled to an hour.

Atkins has also concluded that residential and commercial demolitions would be required.

'Hellish'

Hilary Wharf, director of the campaign group HS2 Action Alliance, said the report was seriously flawed and that upgrading the existing lines would bring bigger benefits to more passengers.

"This government-funded report is a complete fabrication. The main alternative to HS2 involves longer trains and reduced first-class capacity to provide more standard class seats," she said.

"No work is required at Euston to deliver the necessary capacity increase. Work is only required at three locations on the WCML (West Coast Main Line) [West Coast Main Line], and this is comparable to the work being carried out on the route at present."

A government source said: "We need to do something because our railways are nearly full, but the alternative to HS2 is a patch and mend job that would cause 14 years of gridlock, hellish journeys and rail replacement buses.

"The three main routes to the north would be crippled and the economy would be damaged."

And the British Chambers of Commerce said changing tack now would be bad for businesses: "Politicians flirting with a U-turn on HS2 are guilty of electoral short-termism and opportunism of the worst kind.

"Business communities in dozens of cities and towns, from many parts of the UK, remain strongly supportive of HS2."

On Sunday, the Treasury Minister, Danny Alexander, told the BBC's Andrew Marr programme that he was "very confident" the HS2 high speed rail project would be delivered within its ^42.6bn budget.

The fifth Government sponsored business case for HS2 is due out tomorrow, 29th October 2013.
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« Reply #503 on: October 28, 2013, 20:53:51 »

In my opinion HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) is not about whether UK (United Kingdom) PLC can afford to do it in monetary terms ............... Its whether we can afford not to do it and live with over stretched system built in the 19th centaury.

We are 20 years behind the rest of Europe, I just did a trip London to Amsterdam 2 and bit hours to Brussels 50 min connection and 2 hours to Amsterdam; the high speed links through France, Belgium and the Netherlands the stations are outstanding
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caliwag
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« Reply #504 on: October 29, 2013, 11:30:06 »

This though from John Redwood in the Spectator...

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/10/do-we-really-need-the-extra-capacity/?

In an earlier article, in the Spectator, there's mention of a Labour group looking at the Great Central, again!
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caliwag
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« Reply #505 on: October 29, 2013, 12:28:48 »

A further interesting view from Margaret Hodge, c/o Transport Info site

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hs2-rail-link-may-run-beyond-the-department-for-transports-abilities-warns-margaret-hodge-8909572.html
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« Reply #506 on: October 31, 2013, 17:38:47 »

350 votes for, 34 against for the 2nd reading seems a pretty substantial majority. I wonder how many of the 49% of the MP (Member of Parliament)'s who stayed away were ' no' voters ? I noticed that our local representatives were once again conspicuous by their absence.
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eightf48544
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« Reply #507 on: October 31, 2013, 21:48:37 »

I agree that there is a general lack of capacity all over the country but it's mostly confined to large urban centres  where it's mostly station capacity to serve a number of routes. On the routes themselves we are still suffering from the reduced capacity caused by the rationalisations of the 70 and 80, route singling, single lead junctions, long signal sections all of which reduce capacity quite considerably.

We've seen a lot of redoubling schemes such as the Cotswolds and Swindon Kemble although untimately terminal capacity at Paddington will determine how many extra trains can be be run.

I'm not sure how HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) solves those problems in Birmingham Manchester and Leeds by having separate terminal stations to which pasnegers will have to walk when changing from their local trains.
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ellendune
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« Reply #508 on: October 31, 2013, 22:24:53 »

I agree that there is a general lack of capacity all over the country but it's mostly confined to large urban centres  where it's mostly station capacity to serve a number of routes. On the routes themselves we are still suffering from the reduced capacity caused by the rationalisations of the 70 and 80, route singling, single lead junctions, long signal sections all of which reduce capacity quite considerably.

We've seen a lot of redoubling schemes such as the Cotswolds and Swindon Kemble although untimately terminal capacity at Paddington will determine how many extra trains can be be run.

But where is the redoubling scheme that could improve capacity on the West Coast Main line south of Birmingham - it is already 4 track and widening would have a big impact on the towns and villages it passes through (even those that no-longer have a station).

The latest study identified some widening schemes but still creates nowhere near the same capacity as HS2 (The next High Speed line(s))


I'm not sure how HS2 solves those problems in Birmingham Manchester and Leeds by having separate terminal stations to which pasnegers will have to walk when changing from their local trains.

That is an argument at Sheffield and East Midlands (which you do not mention), but if you look:

  • at Manchester the new station will be nearer to the main concourse of Picadilly than the through platforms of the existing station and much nearer than Victoria - which is well connected by tram.
  • in Birmingham Curzon Street Station entrance is actually next to Moor Street Station which if you follow the signs rather than Google maps is 5 minutes walk from New Street
  • in Leeds I am not sure, but as I recall it is only a little further than Birmingham

None of these are as far apart as most London Termini which most people regard as acceptable if not ideal
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #509 on: November 05, 2013, 21:41:01 »

From the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

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HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) minister issues correction over departmental budget


Robert Goodwill joined the government in October

The minister overseeing the HS2 rail project has issued an official correction after getting muddled over the size of his department's budget.

Robert Goodwill suggested in the Commons last week that the transport department's overall budget was ^50bn. The actual figure is less than ^13bn.

He told MPs (Member of Parliament) the ^42bn cost of HS2 equated to just 10 months of his department's overall expenditure. In fact, it would equate to its whole budget for more than three years.

Mr Goodwill, who became a minister in October's reshuffle, made the mistake in response to a question from Tory MP Cheryl Gillan, a critic of the planned high-speed rail link between London, the Midlands and the north of England.

She asked him how he responded to doubts expressed by the National Audit Office (NAO) about the government's ability to deliver the project on time and on budget.

"He is now claiming to have one of the largest infrastructure budgets of any government department, but the NAO does not think the department is fit to run it," she said.

In response, Mr Goodwill said his department had "a lot of experience in managing big projects" before suggesting its annual budget was "about ^50bn".

Comparing the figure with the cost of HS2, he said: "If rolling stock were excluded and nothing else was done with the department's budget, this project would be the equivalent of about 10 months of the department's total budget. That puts it into context."

But the Department for Transport has issued a correction in a written statement to Parliament, clarifying that the minister had actually been thinking of a completely different budget.

It said "the figure quoted was actually a figure for the government's annual capital investment budget".

A spokesman told the BBC: "As set out in the Spending Round the department's total annual budget is ^12.8bn for 2015/16. The government's annual capital investment budget for infrastructure is ^50.4bn for 2014/15."

But Labour's transport spokeswoman Mary Creagh said it was "alarming that a transport minister is so out of touch he doesn't even know his own department's budget".

"It's easy to see how David Cameron's government gets big projects wrong when ministers' maths is this dodgy."
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