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Author Topic: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion  (Read 397029 times)
TonyK
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« Reply #765 on: July 31, 2019, 12:44:19 »


I note that DfT» (Department for Transport - about) uses the American spelling "meters" for the unit of measurement rather than  the English "metres". Is this a deliberate anti-European policy from the new Secretary of State?

I doubt if JRM would approve.  He would probably insist on the measurements being given in cubits.

I hope it was a typo. If not, I too shall be outraged. We have never used meters for a unit of measurement in theis Septic Isle, not even before we joined the EU» (European Union - about). If there is a change, I may well appeal AGAINST the decision.

Interesting article for those who emphasize the environmental credentials of rail....HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) (if it goes ahead) would cause the biggest deforestation since WW1.

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-express/20190730/281900184816605

I wonder with Chris Packham - how much of what he says is merely self-publicity? Also, where is the line between legitimate protest and his role at the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page)? He was warned after calling hunts the "nasty brigade", but here he is actively campaigning againgst the policy of the last three governments at least. He hasn't done it on BBC headed notepaper, but if I had written the same article, nobody would have noticed.

Anyway, that's a job for somebody else. Let's consider what he says.

The route will "devastate more than 100 wildlife rich ancient woodlands". He doesn't say which ones, and later downgrades the warning to "destroyed or damaged", and I don't know if he is including the areas where "cut and cover" tunnels will enable replanting to take place after the work is done. For sure, that is not going to replace ancient woodland, at least not for a couple of hundred years, but HS2 are taking the normal steps to mitigate the loss. Seven million trees are being planted over the whole project, although admittedly it hasn't gone well, with many dying in the recent dry weather. I have yet to eat an omelette that didn't cause serious damage to the eggs involved, though, and the argument must be made on whether the benefit outweighs the damage. The government, rightly or wrongly has decided that in this case, it does, and has altered parts of the scheme to make that more so, such as tunnels in places where cuttings were originally planned.

Next, "HS2 may enable an enormous growth in airport expansion" - this is because of HS2's link to Heathrow via Old Oak Common, according to other articles I have read. The argument that being able to get to Heathrow quickly means we most of the population of the North will start going there to fly to places they wouldn't otherwise have gone doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I don't know if Mr P plans to ever visit the bleak industrial wasteland that is England north of Watford, but if he ever does, he may be surprised to find that Birmingham and Manchester have major international airports these days, with flights across Asia and the Americas as well as the normal bucket and spade trips. Anyone needing to get from Rochdale to Hong Kong or Vancouver for business, to take an example, would probably much rather get the tram to Manchester Airport, and if they were going to somewhere that isn't served by airlines there, would travel to Heathrow anyway. At present, there are at least 7 non-stop flights to Heathrow from Manchester, with the alternatives being coach, train to Euston, tube to Paddington, then train to Heathrow, or car. It may well be that with the advent of HS2, a lot of passengers on those flights or in a car because of the faff of getting three trains may decide that a 250mph rail journey with an easy transfer at OOC (Old Oak Common (depot)) is preferably. Similarly, foreign visitors whose final destination is not London may choose rail rather than internal flight if it is fast and frequent. Personally, I think that HS2 will accomplish its objective of reducing aviation within Britain.

As an aside, I have on occasion begun a long haul journey with a short hop - such as Bristol to Los Angeles via Schipool, or Heathrow to Vancouver via Keflavik. In the first case, it was a lot easier than making the schlep to Heathrow, and in the second I got a stopover in Reykjavik on the way back from Seattle. In both, it cost a lot less because I didn't have to pay the long-haul tax. If aviation tax is increased further, Londoners may find it cost effective to catch Eurostar to Paris - perhaps Mr P would like to campaign for closure of the Channel Tunnel?

And finally, he lambasts the environmental groups for going along with the idea that a fast electric railway could actually be a way of reducing journeys by car and aeroplane. The Green Industry has been doing its thing much longer than has Chris Packham, and has access to many more experts, some of them even unbiased.

So while I don't like the idea of chopping down any trees (with the possible exception of my neighbour's sycamore), I do not think the arguments put forward really hold water. I do, however, see that Mr P could find himself with a lot more time for campaigning were the BBC to take a dim view of his use of his celebrity to make them. Again.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 13:58:57 by TonyK » Logged

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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #766 on: July 31, 2019, 18:41:08 »


I note that DfT» (Department for Transport - about) uses the American spelling "meters" for the unit of measurement rather than  the English "metres". Is this a deliberate anti-European policy from the new Secretary of State?

I doubt if JRM would approve.  He would probably insist on the measurements being given in cubits.

I hope it was a typo. If not, I too shall be outraged. We have never used meters for a unit of measurement in theis Septic Isle, not even before we joined the EU» (European Union - about). If there is a change, I may well appeal AGAINST the decision.

Interesting article for those who emphasize the environmental credentials of rail....HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) (if it goes ahead) would cause the biggest deforestation since WW1.

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-express/20190730/281900184816605

I wonder with Chris Packham - how much of what he says is merely self-publicity? Also, where is the line between legitimate protest and his role at the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page)? He was warned after calling hunts the "nasty brigade", but here he is actively campaigning againgst the policy of the last three governments at least. He hasn't done it on BBC headed notepaper, but if I had written the same article, nobody would have noticed.

Anyway, that's a job for somebody else. Let's consider what he says.

The route will "devastate more than 100 wildlife rich ancient woodlands". He doesn't say which ones, and later downgrades the warning to "destroyed or damaged", and I don't know if he is including the areas where "cut and cover" tunnels will enable replanting to take place after the work is done. For sure, that is not going to replace ancient woodland, at least not for a couple of hundred years, but HS2 are taking the normal steps to mitigate the loss. Seven million trees are being planted over the whole project, although admittedly it hasn't gone well, with many dying in the recent dry weather. I have yet to eat an omelette that didn't cause serious damage to the eggs involved, though, and the argument must be made on whether the benefit outweighs the damage. The government, rightly or wrongly has decided that in this case, it does, and has altered parts of the scheme to make that more so, such as tunnels in places where cuttings were originally planned.

Next, "HS2 may enable an enormous growth in airport expansion" - this is because of HS2's link to Heathrow via Old Oak Common, according to other articles I have read. The argument that being able to get to Heathrow quickly means we most of the population of the North will start going there to fly to places they wouldn't otherwise have gone doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I don't know if Mr P plans to ever visit the bleak industrial wasteland that is England north of Watford, but if he ever does, he may be surprised to find that Birmingham and Manchester have major international airports these days, with flights across Asia and the Americas as well as the normal bucket and spade trips. Anyone needing to get from Rochdale to Hong Kong or Vancouver for business, to take an example, would probably much rather get the tram to Manchester Airport, and if they were going to somewhere that isn't served by airlines there, would travel to Heathrow anyway. At present, there are at least 7 non-stop flights to Heathrow from Manchester, with the alternatives being coach, train to Euston, tube to Paddington, then train to Heathrow, or car. It may well be that with the advent of HS2, a lot of passengers on those flights or in a car because of the faff of getting three trains may decide that a 250mph rail journey with an easy transfer at OOC (Old Oak Common (depot)) is preferably. Similarly, foreign visitors whose final destination is not London may choose rail rather than internal flight if it is fast and frequent. Personally, I think that HS2 will accomplish its objective of reducing aviation within Britain.

As an aside, I have on occasion begun a long haul journey with a short hop - such as Bristol to Los Angeles via Schipool, or Heathrow to Vancouver via Keflavik. In the first case, it was a lot easier than making the schlep to Heathrow, and in the second I got a stopover in Reykjavik on the way back from Seattle. In both, it cost a lot less because I didn't have to pay the long-haul tax. If aviation tax is increased further, Londoners may find it cost effective to catch Eurostar to Paris - perhaps Mr P would like to campaign for closure of the Channel Tunnel?

And finally, he lambasts the environmental groups for going along with the idea that a fast electric railway could actually be a way of reducing journeys by car and aeroplane. The Green Industry has been doing its thing much longer than has Chris Packham, and has access to many more experts, some of them even unbiased.

So while I don't like the idea of chopping down any trees (with the possible exception of my neighbour's sycamore), I do not think the arguments put forward really hold water. I do, however, see that Mr P could find himself with a lot more time for campaigning were the BBC to take a dim view of his use of his celebrity to make them. Again.

Good point re: Birmingham and Manchester Airport. They're both citing HS2 as part of their expansion plans. That's as much a part of the "enormous growth in airport expansion" to which he refers as Heathrow. As you imply, it's not all about London.

I think he's pretty sincere to be honest. It'd be rather surprising if a naturalist didn't raise these issues. Do you accuse David Attenborough of self publicity or misuse of celebrity when he warns us about the destruction of environments?

If someone is fortunate enough to have a platform to raise the profile of an important issue upon which they can speak with knowledge and authority, I'd say they're duty bound to do so.

Journalists, Naturalists and campaigners have been shaming Governments into doing the right thing for centuries, sometimes risking their own lives or careers to do so - long may it continue.

Don't be threatened by free speech. The alternative is much worse.
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« Reply #767 on: July 31, 2019, 18:56:45 »

Interesting article for those who emphasize the environmental credentials of rail....HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) (if it goes ahead) would cause the biggest deforestation since WW1.

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/daily-express/20190730/281900184816605

Was the  number of tree felled to build our motorways ever recorded? If not perhaps it isn't a meaningful statistic.   
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Robin Summerhill
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« Reply #768 on: July 31, 2019, 20:10:28 »

I'm always wary when Iread articles like this because the writer (or the publisher, or both) expect the reader to take it at face value. As Tony K has already picked up, gloom and doom regarding these "ancient woodlands," but which ones? And are they "ancient?" I've heard environmentalists bleat about ancient woodland in the cutting at Cocklebury Lane, just north east of Chippenham, that simply wasn't there 50 years ago...

As it happens, a few years ago I downloaded the plans for HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) between Aylesbury and Brackley (to see how closely it followed the former GC» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line) formation). The answer to the question was quite a lot, with a number of eased curves and the odd diversion on to a new route. I think we can all agree that trees that are standing in the four foot where the great Central once ran do not really qualify as ancient.

Certainly the plans show the new line going through some existing wooded areas, but that is the point - they go through them - they do not obliterate them - and there are still woods shown as standing on either side once the line has been built.

I am afraid that this article, to me, falls into the trap of an author reaching a conclusion and then working back to find justification for it, rather then examine the evidence first and reach a conclusion based on it.
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TonyK
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« Reply #769 on: July 31, 2019, 20:27:35 »

I think we can all agree that trees that are standing in the four foot where the great Central once ran do not really qualify as ancient.


They are part of what is known colloquially as the Beeching Forest.

I have no problem at all with any celebrity saying what they think is necessary in pursuit of their aims, provided thay are legal decent and honest, especially Sir David, and even Chris Packham. The former is experienced enough to keep it apolitical, although no less powerful, and in any case could take the attitude that got me through the last few years of Government service - "Go on, sack me then. You'd be doing me a favour." The latter is closer to risking a breach of the Beeb's neutrality rules, and has been warned about it before, and in any case looks like he's doing as Robin Summerhill suggests.

To be honest, I can't see HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) being scrapped under any circumstances. An awful lot of preparation has gone into it, billions have been spent already, and parts are beginning to take shape. There are detractors in parliament, but a lot of supporters and enough "don't know / care" MPs (Member of Parliament) to see it through. Protesters' energies may be of better use in arguing for mitigation or improvement rather than calling it a white elephant and demanding it be killed off. "Scrap HS2" will always get the answer "No", or a deafening silence. "Run part of it through tunnels" actually worked.
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« Reply #770 on: August 21, 2019, 10:43:47 »

Review of the whole project to take place.

BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) News - HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)): Review to examine costs and benefits of rail project
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49420332
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« Reply #771 on: August 21, 2019, 11:01:52 »

Review of the whole project to take place.

BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) News - HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)): Review to examine costs and benefits of rail project
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49420332

At source:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-announces-independent-review-into-hs2-programme
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hs2-independent-review-terms-of-reference
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« Reply #772 on: August 21, 2019, 11:05:39 »

The beginning of the end? One can but hope. Just too expensive a project for UK (United Kingdom) PLC.

I wonder how FirstGroup are going to react if they don't get to operate HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) as part of the West Coast Partnership franchise? Does the franchise contract cover the possibility of HS2 being scrapped?
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« Reply #773 on: August 21, 2019, 11:25:00 »

I wonder if this is a genuine review or just more electioneering (as other announcements made over the last few days have been). It can be no concidence that The Brexit Party and a lot of Conservative Party members are anti-HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) and these are the votes that Johnson is chasing.

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« Reply #774 on: August 21, 2019, 11:44:23 »

I wonder how FirstGroup are going to react if they don't get to operate HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) as part of the West Coast Partnership franchise? Does the franchise contract cover the possibility of HS2 being scrapped?

I'm sure it will be. The subject isn't evident in the ITT (Invitation to Tender), but bidders would have asked in their "Bidder Clarification Questions" or other haggling. And given the award was only a week ago, for a start (slightly delayed) in December, the operators are in a pretty strong position to say "You've changed the ball! Not playing!"
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« Reply #775 on: August 21, 2019, 12:42:47 »

I wonder if this is a genuine review or just more electioneering (as other announcements made over the last few days have been). It can be no concidence that The Brexit Party and a lot of Conservative Party members are anti-HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) and these are the votes that Johnson is chasing.

Agree definitely electioneering - but that does not mean that they will not follow through with it if they win and election. 
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« Reply #776 on: August 21, 2019, 20:15:11 »

I wonder if this is a genuine review or just more electioneering (as other announcements made over the last few days have been). It can be no concidence that The Brexit Party and a lot of Conservative Party members are anti-HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) and these are the votes that Johnson is chasing.

Agree definitely electioneering - but that does not mean that they will not follow through with it if they win and election. 

I agree with you both, this is blatant electioneering.

HS2 cuts a swathe through Tory heartland, one seat they would like to win back is that of John Bercow and has a major disrupter to the PM's own constituency.
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« Reply #777 on: August 21, 2019, 20:40:38 »

Not just binning HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) for votes I suspect. I wouldn't be surprised to see alternative rail spending projects announcec for marginal constituencies.
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« Reply #778 on: August 21, 2019, 21:55:33 »

Not just binning HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) for votes I suspect. I wouldn't be surprised to see alternative rail spending projects announcec for marginal constituencies.

True. Announcements are cheap...
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« Reply #779 on: August 21, 2019, 22:03:33 »

Quote from: bignosemac
Not just binning HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) for votes I suspect. I wouldn't be surprised to see alternative rail spending projects announced for marginal constituencies.

So electrification for Chippenham and Bath then...  Wink
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