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Author Topic: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion  (Read 193280 times)
Red Squirrel
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« Reply #840 on: October 19, 2019, 03:32:27 pm »

If you want to find this documentary on ITV Hub, search under 'Tonight'.

I think the programme presents a reasonably balanced critical view. It is clear that Britain is really, really bad at doing big infrastructure projects, and it should be obvious that any project of this size will have its waste and absurdities.

The question no-one seems to have a satisfactory answer to is: if not HS2, then what?


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TonyK
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« Reply #841 on: October 19, 2019, 10:02:42 pm »


The question no-one seems to have a satisfactory answer to is: if not HS2, then what?


A good question. Ask the Bearded One, and he will tell you that Virgin Connect will soon be whisking you through the air to that city elswhere in the UK. easyJet , BA, and a very few others offer a similar service. Or same old same old on the railway, with Jeremy Corbyn having to fight for space by the toilet in the not too distant future.
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grahame
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« Reply #842 on: November 04, 2019, 07:46:41 am »

From the Financial Times
   
Quote
A decision on the future of the UKs HighSpeed 2 railway line has been left until after the election, according to the deputy chairman of the official review into the project.

Tony Berkeley, a member of the panel commissioned by prime minister Boris Johnson to review the scheme, said his role had ended on Friday with the report headed by Doug Oakervee, a former chairman of HS2, yet to be completed.

[Long article continues - above quoted here as a 'pointer'
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broadgage
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« Reply #843 on: November 04, 2019, 01:19:42 pm »

Brunel wasn't spending taxpayers money though.

He was spending shareholders money though! What difference does it make?

A lot, buying shares is voluntary and a profit by way of dividend income or rising share price is hoped for but not to be counted on.
Paying taxes is a requirement, hence the desire to see the money spent wisely.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
broadgage
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« Reply #844 on: November 04, 2019, 01:30:30 pm »



Is it surprising ? Just look at the Horlicks they made of GWR electrification - and Brunel had already done the difficult bit !  What have we now got as so-called inter-city expresses ? Glorified outer suburban DMUs with hard seats, next to non existent catering and are slower than the trains they have replaced. Yet we are still being fed lies, sorry, gross exaggerations about these transports of delight, long after the travelling public have seen what they are actually like.
Why should anyone believe what is being said about HS2 ? They can't even agree on a story as to what it is actually for................

Careful now ! I have told off for suggesting that IETs are "outer suburban DMUs" or that catering is "next to non existent" or even that the seats are uncomfortable.
There seems to be a general view on this forum that IETs ARE transports of delight, and that only a few old dinosaurs like me would expect full length trains, padded seats, space for holiday luggage such as surfboards, and even a buffet on inter city routes.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
Red Squirrel
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« Reply #845 on: November 05, 2019, 09:20:34 am »

...There seems to be a general view on this forum that IETs ARE transports of delight...

I'm not sure that's the case; a quick search of this forum will reveal that many other members have been critical of these trains.

I am not a religious squirrel, but this prayer seems apposite here:

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God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.
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TonyK
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« Reply #846 on: November 05, 2019, 10:03:33 am »


I am not a religious squirrel, but this prayer seems apposite here:

Quote
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

Amen!

And it has come to pass thatyea, even days after the closing of the Great Festival of Single-use Plastic that is Hallowe'en, and yet before the culmination of the animal-scaring season, scary strangers come to our doorsteps offering trick or treat, complete with moon on a stick. The B-word tries to make itself a bit scarce but to no avail. Fracking, Heathrow expansion and HS2 are all put on hold, along with other inconveniently frightening infrastructure projects, with only Hinkley C scraping through the cut because evryone has forgotten about it. What happens next remains to be seen, but the nature of the incoming "government" will decide only the length of delay and uncertainty, and how much longer houses in Sipson will be difficult to sell. If these are truly necessary projects, then someone is going to have to bite the bullet one day and get them done. On Heathrow, our current Prime Minister rather painted himself into a corner with his rash promise to lie in front of the bulldozers. His rhetoric on HS2 has been a little more restrained thus far, showing he can sort of learn from mistakes.

A picture paints a thousand words, including these by Peter Brookes of The Times on the changing nature of the debate.



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onthecushions
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« Reply #847 on: November 06, 2019, 10:43:32 pm »


On Heathrow, our current Prime Minister rather painted himself into a corner with his rash promise to lie in front of the bulldozers.



.... not if he's dead in a ditch already!

OTC
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« Reply #848 on: November 13, 2019, 01:42:47 pm »

Adonis/Burnham desperately trying to justify persisting with it and throwing good billions after bad but you definitely get the impression that HS2's days are numbered.

Looking likely it will proceed pretty much as planned:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50388738
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« Reply #849 on: November 13, 2019, 04:16:58 pm »

The cynic in me says that when a government wants to knife a project it commissions a review with the Chair of the team known to be of the same view as the government.  If it doesn't want to kill a project it doesn't do a review.  So slightly surprised if this is the outcome, though it may have been a symptom of a minority government with cross party (and strongly held) views on the subject.
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TonyK
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« Reply #850 on: November 13, 2019, 04:30:42 pm »

My inner cynic suggests that this was a move by the PM to try to kick an inconvenient problem into the long grass until after the election, knowing that the rules of purdah would protect him - except they didn't. I said some time ago, and I was not the only one, that HS2 was about capacity, not speed, but that if are building a new railway, we might as well make it fast. This is exactly the point made in the draft report. Councils, unitary authorities and businesses along the route have been planning things on the assumption that it would be built for some years now.

Cancellation will be seen, north of Watford, as yet another example of the Government looking after London, and sod the rest of you. Adding more delay and uncertainty is uhelpful. If it is stopped now, the route will be in limbo, just like the villages due to make way for the third Heathrow runway. The fabled "something else instead" won't happen for another decade, and we won't have the extra capacity.
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bignosemac
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« Reply #851 on: November 13, 2019, 05:28:32 pm »

We won't have the 88bn (and growing) in the Treasury coffers either. A lot of money is that.
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #852 on: November 13, 2019, 06:13:35 pm »

We won't have the 88bn (and growing) in the Treasury coffers either. A lot of money is that.

Whilst countless trees will be felled for HS2, the Magic money tree is still blooming!
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stuving
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« Reply #853 on: November 13, 2019, 07:15:15 pm »

We won't have the 88bn (and growing) in the Treasury coffers either. A lot of money is that.

Whilst countless trees will be felled for HS2, the Magic money tree is still blooming!

Indeed - and now it's MMTs for all! Under the voodoo system of national statistics being proposed by Sajid Javid, you'd hardly notice an amount that size. And as for what John McDonnell is proposing...
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TonyK
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« Reply #854 on: November 13, 2019, 09:54:04 pm »

We won't have the 88bn (and growing) in the Treasury coffers either. A lot of money is that.

We won't have the 88 bn in the coffers anyway. It might get written on the side of a bus somewhere, but you won't suddenly see improvements to infrastructure and services that some would prefer the money to be spent on instead of HS2. It is certainly a pretty penny, but around 10% of it has already been spent. Assuming that it won't be finished until 2040 gives a spend of an average of 4 bn per year, which begins to sound a lot less. The alternative, according to the author, is control of demand on WCML, which translates as fare increases to force people into cars or coaches.

But - it is fading in popularity. And there was a letter in today's Times from some academic type to say that the matter was, er, academic in any case. With the imminent quantum leap in driverless cars, railways will be a thing of the past within 20 years, as cars will go faster and closer together on motorways, and rail routes will be tarmaced over to accomodate them. I am not so confident of that, personally, but then I'm not even a barrack room professor.
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