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Author Topic: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion  (Read 226428 times)
TaplowGreen
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« Reply #870 on: January 21, 2020, 07:04:21 pm »

Here's a question worth considering......had the original cost estimate for HS2 been placed more accurately at c £100,000,000,000, does anyone think the project would have been approved?
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #871 on: January 21, 2020, 08:03:52 pm »

Probably not. If engineers didn't lie to accountants, nothing worth more than fourpence three farthings would ever get built.
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SandTEngineer
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« Reply #872 on: January 21, 2020, 08:19:54 pm »

Probably not. If engineers didn't lie to accountants, nothing worth more than fourpence three farthings would ever get built.
Well, in my 50-year S&T career I can never remember lying to the project financial experts, but blinding them with science is a different matter...... Tongue Grin
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #873 on: January 23, 2020, 10:31:03 pm »

A thought-provoking video on YouTube: Why HS2 is good for Aberystwyth, and why you can have both.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf5avCUNP0M&t=1427s
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #874 on: January 24, 2020, 07:38:10 am »

Probably not. If engineers didn't lie to accountants, nothing worth more than fourpence three farthings would ever get built.

…………...and then they turn around and bite you in the arse.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51223101
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #875 on: January 24, 2020, 08:34:37 am »

Probably not. If engineers didn't lie to accountants, nothing worth more than fourpence three farthings would ever get built.

…………...and then they turn around and bite you in the arse.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51223101

Just to be clear: who are you saying bit whom?
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #876 on: February 03, 2020, 10:32:07 am »

Posted on the RailUKforums, here are links to some details of the new HS2 and GWML station at Old Oak Common:

Part 1: (intro and external stuff) http://planningregister.opdc.london.gov.uk/swift/MediaTemp/9397-1396789481.pdf
Part 2: (internal design) http://planningregister.opdc.london.gov.uk/swift/MediaTemp/9397-1396789480.pdf
Part 3: (other aspects like energy, accessibility and surroundings) http://planningregister.opdc.london.gov.uk/swift/MediaTemp/9397-1396789479.pdf
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To view my GWML Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #877 on: February 03, 2020, 01:06:56 pm »

A thought-provoking video on YouTube: Why HS2 is good for Aberystwyth, and why you can have both.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf5avCUNP0M&t=1427s
Is that supposed to start at 23:47?
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Tuesday had come down through Dundrum and Foster Avenue, brine-fresh from sea-travel, a corn-yellow sun-drench that called forth the bees at an incustomary hour to their bumbling.
TonyK
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« Reply #878 on: February 08, 2020, 10:54:14 am »

Probably not. If engineers didn't lie to accountants, nothing worth more than fourpence three farthings would ever get built.

…………...and then they turn around and bite you in the arse.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51223101

Just to be clear: who are you saying bit whom?

I saw a play many years ago, a 1970s farce.

Woman: "You snake in the grass!"
Man: "But madam, I am a chartered accountant!"
Woman: "You...you..you adder!"
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Now, please!
TonyK
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« Reply #879 on: February 10, 2020, 04:16:29 pm »

Moving back from farce for a moment, the papers (with the possible exception of the Grauniad) are predicting an announcement very soon to confirm HS2, at least as far as Birmingham to begin with. It seems that without it, the Norther Powerhouse will collapse, over 400 civil engineering contract companies will go bust and 250,000 people will lose their jobs. The mayors of Brum and Manchester are but two of the voices in the chorus shouting "JFDI!". The destruction of the ancient woodland that has grown on trackbeds since Beeching matters little north of the Cotswolds.
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #880 on: February 10, 2020, 04:42:40 pm »

Quote
Boris Johnson to give HS2 green light despite Tory fears

PM will promise range of other infrastructure projects to appease nothern voters

Boris Johnson will give the final go-ahead to the first phase of the controversial HS2 high speed rail link early this week – despite fears over spiralling costs and strong opposition from at least 60 Tory MPs.

The prime minister is expected to make an announcement to parliament on Tuesday approving construction of the line between London and Birmingham, two days before conducting a wide-ranging reshuffle of his cabinet.
Source: The Guardian. On, erm, Saturday.
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stuving
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« Reply #881 on: February 11, 2020, 01:31:43 pm »

Pending the release of the official version of what Boris has just told MPs, DfT have let out the report of the Oakervee Review of HS2:
Quote
Overall conclusions
The choice of “whether and how we proceed” with HS2 is the responsibility of the government. The latest economic appraisal indicates that the net cost to the transport budget in proceeding with HS2 is around £62bn to £69bn (present values, 2015 prices). In providing its view to government, the Review considers that, on balance, Ministers should proceed with the HS2 project, subject to the following conclusions and a number of qualifications.

The full report is a bit longer - 130 pagesworth of longer, in fact.
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stuving
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« Reply #882 on: February 11, 2020, 03:49:47 pm »

And here is the text (or script?) of what Boris said, covering a lot more on transport besides HS2:
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So today Mr Speaker, the Cabinet has given high speed rail the green signal.

We are going to get this done.

And to ensure that we do so without further blowouts on either cost or schedule,

we are today taking decisive action to restore discipline to the programme.

I will be appointing a Minister whose full-time job will be to oversee the project.

A new Ministerial oversight group will be tasked with taking strategic decisions about it.

There will be changes to the way HS2 is managed.

We will, in line with Oakervee’s recommendations, be interrogating the current costs to identify where savings can be made in phase 1 without the costs and delays that would be associated with a detailed redesign.

And, so that the company can focus solely on getting phases 1 and 2A built on something approaching on time and on budget

I will be creating new delivery arrangements for both the grossly behind-schedule Euston terminus, and phase 2B of the wider project.

But before those designs are finalised and legislation introduced, we will also present an integrated plan for rail in the north.

Informed by an assessment from the National Infrastructure Commission it will, in line with the findings of the Oakervee review, look at how we can best design and integrate rail investments across the north –

including Northern Powerhouse Rail between Leeds and Manchester, - and I have just spoken to the Mayor of Greater Manchester who has warmly welcomed this project - which I committed to supporting I remember during my first days in office.

I want the plan to identify the most effective design and sequencing of all relevant investments in the north.

For example, with many in the north crying out for better east/west links instead of improved north/south ones, which you’ve heard many times in this house

…some have suggested delaying or even cancelling HS2 in order to get Northern Powerhouse Rail done more quickly.

But I want to say to you Mr Speaker and to the House, this is not an either/or proposition.

Both are needed, and both will be built – as quickly and cost-effectively as possible.

To make sure that happens we will, working closely with northern leaders, explore options for creating a new delivery vehicle for Northern Powerhouse Rail.

And we will start treating HS2, north of Birmingham, Northern Powerhouse Rail and other local rail improvements as part of one integrated masterplan, High Speed North.

Because something has to change.

Those who deny this, who say we should simply build 2B and Northern Powerhouse Rail according to the plans currently on the table, are effectively condemning the North to get nothing for 20 years.

And that would be intolerable.

So as we draw up this plan we are not asking whether phase 2B is not to be.

That is not the question, Mr Speaker

The question is how we can bring a transport revolution to the north sooner.

There is also a lot of very Boristic stuff linking this to buses and other local transport programmes.

Wiithin that excerpt there are several specific changes to the management of HS2 plus Northern Powerhouse Rail plus.
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grahame
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« Reply #883 on: February 14, 2020, 09:24:21 am »

Press Release from Railfuture

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Rail campaigners welcome green light for HS2

Boris Johnson has given the immediate go-ahead to construct Phase 1 and Phase 2A of HS2. “We’re delighted that the Prime Minister has recognised the contribution that investment in our railways can make in addressing economic development, social imbalance and environmental concerns across Britain” said Chris Page, chairman of Britain’s leading independent campaign group Railfuture.

The route goes between Old Oak Common (West London) to Birmingham and onward to Crewe where the line will join the West Coast Main Line to Manchester, North West England, and Scotland. The prime minister has also given the conditional go-ahead for the later Phase 2B from Crewe to Manchester and the important North East leg to the East Midlands, Sheffield and Leeds, subject to a detailed exercise on contract costs and possibly some descoping.

The terminal at Euston will also go ahead, several years after the line opens from Old Oak Common, as a separately managed project including the major commercial development envisaged at Euston. This will be required very soon after HS2 opens, as Old Oak Common is unlikely to have the capacity to accommodate the envisaged number of trains after the initial build-up period.

“To get maximum benefits, the full scheme including Phase 2B must be completed as a single programme, delivered in increments, and designed to maximise capacity available on the national rail network” said Chris.“Cost control is important but any descoping must not be allowed to reduce the capacity of HS2 given its essential role in facilitating additional capacity to supplement existing main line routes, including the West Coast, Midland and East Coast Lines as well as urban rail capacity in Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds.”

“The Prime Minister has rightly emphasised that Northern Powerhouse Rail, i.e. a high-capacity West to East link from Liverpool and Manchester to Leeds, Hull and into the East Coast Line to Teesside and Tyneside, is also essential. Railfuture contends that there is considerable synergy and hence overall capital cost reduction if HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail are treated as a single entity in development and planning terms, so providing a link from Manchester Airport directly into Manchester city centre and directly onward on Northern Powerhouse Rail to Leeds.”

“Whilst this is great news it will do nothing for passengers now, so we also call on the government and rail companies to sort out the problems which are causing poor reliability and customer satisfaction. This does not necessarily mean spending lots of money, just getting timetabling, rostering, staff terms and conditions, customer service, ticketing and the introduction of new and cascaded trains right.”

“Growth is happening now, it will not wait for HS2. There is also a necessary series of essential tactical improvements to the existing rail network to provide increased capacity during the time that HS2 is being constructed and so allow HS2 to hit the ground running. An integrated plan is required for freight, both existing but growing freight flows in addition to massive freight flows on existing overcrowded routes necessary to construct HS2 itself, particularly aggregates, cement and steel.”

“We see HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail as the backbone of an integrated plan to develop Britain’s railways to achieve their full potential. The government in funding HS2 has set the challenge, now the industry must rise to that challenge, operationally and in terms of sustained project delivery.”
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #884 on: February 14, 2020, 10:06:29 am »

Future historians will look back on 2020 as a turning point for the railways every bit as significant as 1963.

Beeching wrote two reports. The first one, The Reshaping of British Railways, had and still has a huge impact on the communities it severed from the public transport network. But in many ways it doesn't affect the day-to-day running of the modern railway. If anything, it simplifies it and makes it easier to operate.

Beeching's second report, The Development of the Major Railway Trunk Routes, is another matter. This was the blueprint for cutting out 'redundancy' in major routes, and resulted in a reduction in capacity and flexibility, which hamstrings the current network every day - especially when things go wrong, or maintenance is required.

With HS2 getting the go-ahead, we can finally lay the ghost of Beeching 2. It is an emphatic vote of confidence in the future of rail. We must hope that all the fine words about fixing the iniquities of Beeching 1 also turn to action.

Here's a flythrough video that shows the whole of HS2 Phase 1 from Curzon St to Euston. Make a cup of tea, sit back, and enjoy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bkoGvw9kbA 
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