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Author Topic: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion  (Read 221701 times)
TonyK
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« Reply #975 on: May 22, 2020, 05:11:43 pm »

Did they, though?

According to my Roman street map (yours may vary), five major roads converged on Londinium, but the same was true of Corinium (Cirencester) - the Birmingham of the Cotswolds...

There was, apparently, a ring road to avoid the centre of London. I recall reading about the discovery a couple of years ago, probably during something to do with Crossrail. A sort of pedestrian MXXV.

Sic transit Gloria Gaynor.
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SandTEngineer
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« Reply #976 on: May 22, 2020, 06:06:22 pm »

Oh well, back on topic again.  Old Oak station approved: https://www.railway-technology.com/news/old-oak-common-station-receives-approval-from-opdc/
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TonyK
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« Reply #977 on: May 22, 2020, 06:11:15 pm »


Ah yes, where we drifted from yesterday. 1.3 billion, and the largest station ever built, some say. Numbers are fairly meaningless by now on HS2 (except for the "2" obviously).
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #978 on: May 23, 2020, 09:12:15 am »


Numbers are fairly meaningless by now on HS2 (except for the "2" obviously).

...there's many a true word.... Smiley
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johnneyw
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« Reply #979 on: May 23, 2020, 12:13:45 pm »

The Romans had a network of 'B roads' too, such as the Via Julia from Aquae Sulis to Abonae (Sea Mills), which survives in traces over the Bristol Downs and in nearby names such as Julian Road.

Which may also explain the road name "Roman Way" which leads down to Sea Mills from roughly the right direction. *

Yes, I know, I've just committed "topic drift". Won't happen again, honest!
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 12:18:55 pm by johnneyw » Logged
TonyK
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« Reply #980 on: May 23, 2020, 07:36:54 pm »

The Romans had a network of 'B roads' too, such as the Via Julia from Aquae Sulis to Abonae (Sea Mills), which survives in traces over the Bristol Downs and in nearby names such as Julian Road.

Which may also explain the road name "Roman Way" which leads down to Sea Mills from roughly the right direction. *

Yes, I know, I've just committed "topic drift". Won't happen again, honest!

There was a Roman road from Sea Mills (Portus Abonae) to Gloucester, via Thornbury, past a Roman farm in Lawrence Weston, now safely concreted over. Now I've just done the topic drift thing too. If  only the station had been called Abonae, I might have got away with it.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 09:25:34 pm by TonyK » Logged

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SandTEngineer
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« Reply #981 on: May 24, 2020, 04:37:41 pm »

Trying to get back on topic again Roll Eyes

I know this isn't technically on our patch, nor exclusively about HS2, but..... https://www.nic.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/NIC-Rail-Needs-Assessment-Call-for-Evidence.pdf
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CyclingSid
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« Reply #982 on: June 02, 2020, 07:02:15 pm »

Interesting, but probably would not get far:
https://road.cc/content/news/james-may-pm-bomb-us-bicycles-hs2-cash-273933
Almost certainly a no vote from Mr Clarkson.

And I don't think this commentator is up for it yet
https://inews.co.uk/opinion/columnists/lockdown-bike-pop-up-cycling-lanes-dangerous-2870091
Good job they gave some money for Bikeability training!
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TonyK
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« Reply #983 on: June 02, 2020, 08:49:02 pm »

Interesting, but probably would not get far:
https://road.cc/content/news/james-may-pm-bomb-us-bicycles-hs2-cash-273933
Almost certainly a no vote from Mr Clarkson.

And I don't think this commentator is up for it yet
https://inews.co.uk/opinion/columnists/lockdown-bike-pop-up-cycling-lanes-dangerous-2870091
Good job they gave some money for Bikeability training!

It's something of a mystery to me why the government doesn't give at least a back-of-fag-packet description of the fabled HS2 money. There isn't 100 billion locked in a room with a guard outside marked "For HS2 only". It is borrowed from the financial markets at the special rates available to governments as it is needed, with the government promising to pay it back from the measurable income at the fare box and more esoteric lift to the economy associated with an infrastructure project. It's a bit like building your own house. The bank lends you the cost of the land. That bit done, you go back (assuming you don't have the cash handy at home) when you have got the preppy uppy done for another instalment to pay for the first round of materials and wages for your contractors. That done, you go back when you need the next lot of materials, and so on. If you were to go back to the bank after digging the foundations, putting in civils and laying the first three courses of bricks, and tell him that you've changed your mind, you're going to leave it where you got to, but can I have the rest of the loan to buy lots of tents for everybody, the answer would be a firm "No!". Same here. No money, no HS2, and no HS2, no money. By all means submit your plan for bikes for all, with funding proposals, but this is nothing to do with that.

Meanwhile, work has begun on the first major new bridge. I suppose it makes a change from Coronavirus in the papers and on the telly, but somebody will still be demanding that the whole HS2 idea be abandoned on the day the first train runs. Whenever that might be.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 10:22:57 am by TonyK » Logged

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« Reply #984 on: June 02, 2020, 10:58:49 pm »

The other point is that the '100 billion" is for phases 1, 2a and 2b which will take 15 to 20 years.  At 15 years it averages to 7 billion a year.
Remember that the famous bus promised 350 million a week for the NHS.  That is 18.2 billion a year.
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TonyK
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« Reply #985 on: June 03, 2020, 10:43:56 am »

The other point is that the '100 billion" is for phases 1, 2a and 2b which will take 15 to 20 years.  At 15 years it averages to 7 billion a year.
Remember that the famous bus promised 350 million a week for the NHS.  That is 18.2 billion a year.

And that's for the build. Taken over a 100 year timeline, not unreasonable for a railway, the cost looks even less, but government accounting will probably work to a lower period. The trains themselves will have a design life of about 25 years, so will be in use for 40 years to take account of the traditional dithering over how to replace them.

It can go awry, of course. Bristol's MetroBust, for comparison, borrowed the money not provided by the Government with a baseline of repaying it from income over 60 years. That income comes from the access charge paid by the many competing operators in order to use the infrastructure. Although there aren't any competing operators, just First Bus and their charity sub-contractor. There aren't any access charges because First said they would not use the infrastructure if there were. The misguided busway stood unused for a year before services began, since when they have been interrupted by a road collapse, and then a week after reopening, by Covid-19. This is less likely to happen with a railway than it is with a cobbled-together scheme that was always chasing the money for its own sake.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 03:16:39 pm by TonyK » Logged

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« Reply #986 on: June 03, 2020, 04:46:13 pm »

Also, don't forget that much of the expenditure will find its way back into Government coffers short-term (as direct VAT, income tax, corporation tax), medium term (the above in the wider economy via the economic principle of the multiplier effect), and long term (through economic growth, stamp duty).

Anyway, I suppose the newsworthy thing is that the first projects to take advantage of the new infrastructure in the East Midlands are now coming to fruition and we can see what a game-changer it will be. Far from a standalone white elephant.

Now what would be really clever is for the UK Government to commit to the Northern England and Midlands programmes (plus ideally a sum for electrification and light rail). As eXPassenger says, it would not be a stupid amount of money each year, and it would give the supply chain confidence to invest. 
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TonyK
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« Reply #987 on: June 05, 2020, 03:22:09 pm »

The legal challenge to HS2 based on the wall of immense historic significance and national importance has been refused by the Court. One report says "Resident loses", another says "HS2 wins", lthis link is to the Standard which says it has been derailed, but isn't pay-per-view.

Edit: For the chronically insomniac, the full Judge's ruling can be found here. For the benefit of anyone who really does have something else worth doing during lockdown, he says, amongst a lot of other things, that:

Quote
It is impossible to accept that the First Defendant [High Speed 2 Ltd]is so reckless and so wilful that it is dogmatically persevering with a concept that it does not believe can be delivered safely.

and:

Quote
Mr Mould [Timothy Mould QC, counsel for HS2 and the contractors, instructed by the Government Legal Service] accepted in terms that if at any stage during this process it should become apparent that the outbound tunnel under the retaining wall cannot be constructed safely, then the Three Tunnels design would require modification or abandonment. Although that would be embarrassing, I have no difficulty in accepting Mr Mould's frank submission because, as I have said, the Defendants would not choose to act irresponsibly.

In short, HS2 would never deliberately muck it up. If it looks like they will accidentally muck it up, they will alter the design. If they don't, and still muck it up, come back and see me again if you can't agree terms.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 03:47:25 pm by TonyK » Logged

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« Reply #988 on: June 05, 2020, 03:48:28 pm »

One point raised by the complainant was that she was suffering from anxiety and stress, and had a report from her dentist to say that her teeth were ground down.  Clearly a very material factor in the case.

The argument seemed to be - we claim the tunnel construction is unsafe as there are no detailed plans on how they will tunnel under the retaining wall safely.  HS2 countered claiming that it can be safely constructed, and they will ensure that the detailed construction plans, when drawn up, will ensure it is. The judge ruled that you can't prove a method to be unsafe if it is undefined, and accepted that HS2 had an obligation to develop a safe plan else they would not proceed.

I'm sure there will be more grinding (and even gnashing) of teeth in the house of Ms Hero Grainger-Taylor tonight. Just as well dentists are reopening soon...
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SandTEngineer
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« Reply #989 on: June 11, 2020, 06:40:18 pm »

Information on the new Chilterns Tunnels TBM launch site here: https://mediacentre.hs2.org.uk/news/hs2-reveals-striking-new-images-of-first-tunnel-launch-site
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