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Author Topic: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion  (Read 398408 times)
Tim
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« Reply #75 on: January 04, 2010, 12:14:45 »

As I've said before here, the facility itself will cause demand, people will, if the fares are reasonable use the facility and expand their personal footprints regularly. Passengers will undertake regular trips to other destination cities for shopping and leisure purposes. It will also encourage a much larger travel to work area for cities such as London, Birmingham and Manchester, resulting in the levelling out of property prices in the South East overtime.

I agree that more people will travel further if speeds are increased.  The HST (High Speed Train) expanded London's commuter belt out to Chippenham and Bath,  HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) could take it out to Manchester and Preston.  But if you take that route of arguement you can't simultaneously argue that HS (High Speed (short for HSS (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) rail is green.  The green solution is for most London workers to live nearish to London and Most people who live in manchester to have reasonably local jobs. 

I hope that we will get some levelling out of property prices across the country, but HS rail will do no more than impose London prices on a few small parts of Northern England.  less excessible parts of the country will be unaffected and HS2 will be inaccessible to most of the country.  What really needs to happen to help the North (and other parts of the country outside the SE like Cornwall/Devon and parts of Wales) is to move decent jobs close to those places.  Isn't that more sensible then subsidising movement of the workforce to existing job hotspots.   You do need decent transport to help less-well off places develop, but improving local transport to local and regional centres is the answer.  Moderate line speed increases in places like Cornwall and tram/metro networks to bigger cities are the answer.  It would be better if the people of Burnley or Cambourne or Hartlepool   were given decent transport to jobs and training in their local city (Manchester, Exeter, newcastle, respectively) than people in Leeds and Brimingham which are already regenerating are given better links to London.  I sense that the Northern Way (a consortium of RDAs (Regional Development Agency) in the North of England) are begining to understand the importance of regional transport with their talk of regional improvements between the big cities of the North.  It makes more sense for Liverpool, Manchetser, Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield to come together in a regional grouping to develop an economic centre of gravity to rival London rather than for one or two of those places to become satalites of London.  Some of Northern's line speeds are truely terrible.  Much better (and cheaper and easier) to boost those by 20 mph than to build HS2.  Also many of the post-industrial Northern towns have loads of disused rail formations which could be brought back into light or heavy rail use (ie reoppening the Woodhead tunnel as just one example) whereas there are real engineering problems in trying to run yet more raillines into London.  HS1 (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) was hugely expensive because of the large distance of tunnels.  Putting tracks onto overgrown formations in going to be much cheaper.

Industry Insider makes some very sensible points about integrating new HS lines with modestly improved classic lines in order to get more towns onto the network and improve losts of journeys not just a few point to point ones.  If he were planning (and funding) the HS network I would support it.   

My fear is that the reality is that we will get a vastly expensive very limited HS network benefiting a few journeys only and that the classic routes will suffer to pay for it.   

The biggest compromise decision that will have to be made is to choose the speed for HS2.  I would suggest that somewhere between 150 and 180 mph would be the answer (more like germany than France - our closer spacing of citie sin more like Germany's).  We sould forget about 250mph running our geography is wrong.  To get the benefits of though services running part on existing line, part on upgraded existing line and part on new line, the new line needs to be able to accept trains running at 140/150mph.  If you mix those trains with 200/225/250 mph trains on teh HS section you really kill capacity.

If we build a 250mph track, as well being very costly most slower trains will be barred in order to run enough very fast trains to keep the track utilisation up in order to justity building it in the first place.   
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #76 on: January 04, 2010, 14:20:50 »

I agree that more people will travel further if speeds are increased.  The HST (High Speed Train) expanded London's commuter belt out to Chippenham and Bath,  HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) could take it out to Manchester and Preston.  But if you take that route of arguement you can't simultaneously argue that HS (High Speed (short for HSS (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) rail is green.  The green solution is for most London workers to live nearish to London and Most people who live in manchester to have reasonably local jobs. 

Industry Insider makes some very sensible points about integrating new HS lines with modestly improved classic lines in order to get more towns onto the network and improve losts of journeys not just a few point to point ones.

Thanks, Tim. And you make some very valid points too - especially regarding the green credentials of a High Speed line which just means more people are brought within the commuter belt of London and as a consequence trains run over longer distances to get them to the office. It's an argument also used by Christian Wolmer regarding the Javelin service.
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« Reply #77 on: January 05, 2010, 23:16:00 »

No doubt this should be a response to a thread which I cannot locate, but it seems that Simon Jenkins hits the nail on the head...again!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/05/high-speed-rail-crowded-island
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #78 on: January 05, 2010, 23:33:24 »

Worth trawling through some of the comments. There's the usual nonsensical bile from those who seem to spend their lives just criticising everything, but there are a few well written counter arguments to the article - one from Anders9x posted at 10:39pm is well worth reading.

Just adds to what, in a more limited way, we've been discussing on here - http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=5138.0 - there's a whole lot of hard thinking to be done to come to the best decision!
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To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
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« Reply #79 on: January 06, 2010, 00:17:40 »

I agree with the article. It's going to benefit so few at the expense of us all!

In fact, just like Southeastern and the Javelin service, but with the whole country paying, not just Kent.
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grandsire
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« Reply #80 on: February 08, 2010, 18:49:14 »

Very interesting article from the Guardian a couple of days ago intimating that a Birmingham Airport link for HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) makes much more sense than Heathrow.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/feb/07/heathrow-threat-high-speed-rail-birmingham
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Btline
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« Reply #81 on: February 08, 2010, 20:48:24 »

Heathrow should have a link, but as a spur line, not as part of the route to the West Mids.
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caliwag
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« Reply #82 on: February 08, 2010, 22:23:56 »

LOL (laughing out loud)...last year Doncaster, er international airport, was likewise mooted. Well, if there was space on the tracks, you could do, with a high speed spur which wouldn't cost much, airport to KX in under 90 mins. Of course lots of the commuter stuff would get in the way South of Peterboro' but makes you think. Doncaster does have a fantastic long runway, and there will be those that want to go to Hull and Grimsby...even Goole. Roll Eyes
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eightf48544
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« Reply #83 on: February 09, 2010, 17:14:03 »

Wasn't the build up of Doncaster Airport once touted as an alternative to the third runway at Heathrow and 2nd runways at Gatwick and Stanstead?

What about Humberside Airport rail close by and Barnetby station has disabled access via the most massive ramped footbridge. It also has an immpressive array of semaphore signals as well. You can then have high speed trains on an old GC» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line) line as Watkin intended.
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« Reply #84 on: February 19, 2010, 22:50:19 »

Slow news day?

HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) is the top story on tonight's (19/02/10) Newsnight.
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« Reply #85 on: February 19, 2010, 22:50:57 »

An unusually easy ride given to Andrew Adonis by Paxo, perhaps time constraints didn't allow him to push the point about how much HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) is expected to cost. Paxo could also have pressed him further on the favoured route(s) contained in the report which Andrew Adonis is currently sitting on.
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eightf48544
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« Reply #86 on: February 20, 2010, 00:01:26 »

Listened to Theresa Villiers this am didn't understand a word except they (the Tories) are not going to look at the report until it's published.

Can anyone explain why?
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #87 on: February 20, 2010, 00:12:02 »

From the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Quote
Tories deny playing politics over high-speed rail plan

Shadow transport secretary Theresa Villiers has denied "playing politics" over the construction of a high-speed rail link from London to the Midlands. She confirmed that the the Tories had turned down an offer to view a copy of government plans for the route. But she said they were "not going to take Labour's route on trust" and would "reserve the right to look again" at plans once they are made public.

The government said it wanted to build a cross-party consensus on the issue.

Both the Conservatives and Lib Dems want a 250mph rail route instead of a third runway at Heathrow - the government wants one in addition to airport expansion.

The Tories have signalled their support for a high-speed route to include Heathrow, while Labour appears to favour a link or loop to the airport.

A White Paper on the new line linking London with the West Midlands is due next month and will be followed by a public consultation on options for the route.

Ms Villiers told BBC Radio 4's Today programme the paper would be "a very important contribution" to the debate, but the Conservatives did not want it "to close down the options". "We don't want there to be some cosy deal reached behind closed doors which closes out the communities that may be affected by the route," she said. "We're not going to take Labour's route on trust. We're going to reserve the right to look again at the route." She said there were "important areas of consensus" between the parties on the issue but the Conservatives would not look at the report until the public could see it as well. "We're not playing politics with this issue. It's enormously important and where the route goes will be enormously important in getting the maximum benefit from high-speed rail and also in minimising the impact on local communities affected by the route. We want to make sure that all those communities have the right get involved in the debate... before final decisions are taken."

Transport Secretary Lord Adonis said he was "very surprised" at Ms Villiers' comments, as the Conservatives had been "engaging" in the process so far. "Without political consensus on the principle of high-speed rail, it is unlikely to be taken forward as a national project in the next decade," he said. "But there will of course be public consultation on any route proposal put forward by the government."

Lib Dem transport spokesman Norman Baker said: "This peculiar decision of the Tories coupled with [shadow chancellor George] Osborne's spending cuts strongly suggest that the Tories are trying to kick high-speed rail into the long grass. The Tories can't be trusted with our railways."

Early plans suggest the new line would involve 400-metre long trains, capable of carrying 1,100 passengers, and would come at a cost of ^60bn. If the government accepts plans given to it by HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)), the company set up to deliver the project, building work could begin in 2017, with the first trains running in 2025.

Ms Villiers said that if the Tories won the next election, it would take another four to five years of planning and preparation before construction could start on a new line. That time frame would increase if they decided to rework the route suggested by Labour but she added: "We are still determined to deliver this project and deliver it in a timely and cost effective way."

Prof Stephen Glaister, director of motoring body the RAC Foundation, said: "All parties are advocating HSR [high-speed rail], yet Theresa Villiers is refusing the opportunity to see the official, independent, study into a new line, and the public might well conclude that she is happy to base her party's views more on faith than fact. One is left wondering whether she now believes the HS2 report won't be as supportive of a new north-south line as everyone is being led to believe." Prof Glaister said the White Paper should be published immediately in order to make clear the arguments for and against the new line.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 00:34:54 by chris from nailsea » Logged

William Huskisson MP (Member of Parliament) was the first person to be killed by a train while crossing the tracks, in 1830.  Many more have died in the same way since then.  Don't take a chance: stop, look, listen.

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RichardB
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« Reply #88 on: February 20, 2010, 00:46:36 »

An unusually easy ride given to Andrew Adonis by Paxo, perhaps time constraints didn't allow him to push the point about how much HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) is expected to cost. Paxo could also have pressed him further on the favoured route(s) contained in the report which Andrew Adonis is currently sitting on.

I didn't see the report but I am sorry to read this analysis.  For those like me who grew up with a downtrodden railway recovering from Beeching, all talk of High Speed Rail brings out wild enthusiasm.

My guess is that the preferred route is the old GWR (Great Western Railway) main line to Birmingham, re-instating four tracking through most of the route.

There is a train on most days from Paddington that takes this route (11 00 or so Princes Risborough).  Take the train and see the potential.   

I'm sorry to see that, having supposedly backed High Speed Rail, the Conservatives seem now to be having cold feet.

Not a good sign for the future.  And there I will leave politics......
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« Reply #89 on: February 20, 2010, 08:30:23 »

Listened to Theresa Villiers this am didn't understand a word except they (the Tories) are not going to look at the report until it's published.

Can anyone explain why?
No matter what route is take north west out of London it will carve it's way through Tory heartlands, for instance if the old GWR (Great Western Railway)/GCR» (Gloucester - next trains) route is used this will cut its way through some very blue areas which are areas where the likes of UKIP could put up a strong challenge also some of the inner London parts BNP (Barnstaple) might get a foot hold.

The Tory's have never liked the railways which is made even worse by the failure of their privatisation model of Railtrack and the myriad of competing TOC (Train Operating Company)'s and maintenance contractors
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