Reduction in number of trains available on the network ... Lymington Branch

[whole diary]

[grahame]

A little bit of history (mostly repeated from elsewhere on the forum / odd snippets in threads on other subjects).

1. There is something of a stock shortage of reasonable d.m.u.s around the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), and those which are available are very expensive to hire.  Talking to very high up folks (authoritative source), what units are available within a franchise to run extra services tend to go to the local authority bidder who'll give the best profit, rather than there being enough units to cover all good business cases.

2. The Lymington branch in Hampshire is an electric line, currently run using refurbished, heritage, electric stock by SWT^▸ (South West Trains).  It seems only very recently that the refurbs were done and "a lot of money spent on making it into a heritage line" ... here's the poster that's currently on display at Lymington Town station:



Now that says that the use of the old stock, which I'll refer to as 'slammers', will safeguard the line for many years to come ... yet the MD of SWT has now announced that they'll be replaced from next May, and by a scarse resource - a class 158 unit of exactly the type as SWT have been hiring to First through this summer to let them have enough stock to meet their committments.   The SWT unit has been running one of only two northbound TransWilts journeys ...

Here is the report of Stewart Palmer's  comments:

Confirmed by SWT MD Stewart Palmer during last week's SWT Webchat that a 158 takes over the Lymington branch Mon-Fri from May 2010 with a 450 running the service at weekends.

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/SWTrains/Customerservice/LC/TrainsRollingStock.htm

I can confirm that the units will be withdrawn from the Lymington branch at the May timetable change in 2010. We evaluated all the options for rolling stock on the Lymington branch and came to the conclusion that the most cost-effective solution in the long term is to provide a Class 158 diesel Monday to Friday and a Class 450 at weekends.

I have some questions / thoughts:

1. Does the cost analysis that SWT have done take into consideration the loss of national rail resource of (realistically) one diagram per day?

2. Is there a disproportionate cost 'hit' on SWT caused by penalties charged for late running / underperforming on the line if they've been having reliability problems?

3. I know there's a problem with spares (but I think that could be more advised than actual - both units were in service on successive days this week), but is the real issue that the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) would rather simplify / have as few stock types as practical too look after and wants rid of the two unit 'special'

4. What do the local communities and businesses mentioned in the "this is great - a heritage line" poster think?   Could this change of heart by SWT be considered a slap in their face, or are they in favour?

Not my area of the country / expertise, so I'm only asking the questions.   But it is of concern; it seems peverse to take an electric line and run a diesel on it, to withdraw loved and usable stock when doing so increases a shortage that effects other lines such as one I would like to see that 158 serve, and to use cost justification to claim that it's better value to run a unit for which 250,000 per annum (or so) will have to be paid as hire charges, rather than a unit that is already owned outright.

I do know, as it happens, a little about what the locals think.  I was in Lymington for two days last week, working with people who are business people there and regular users of the line.   They feel it is an about face, and can't understand it - they can't provide good answers to my questions; the trains are loved, they bring people to the town who wouldn't come if it was just a 158. "Waste of money doing the refurb, then" was one comment I heard ... and I heard mutterings about betrayal of promises too.  Does anyone have any further light to shed?

My pictures .. taken from a ride the other evening:

http://www.wellho.net/share/slammers.html
http://www.wellho.net/share/slammers2.html
http://www.wellho.net/share/slammers3.html

And a sample ... 3CIG 1497 at Lymington Town

[bemmy]

I know nothing of the area or the line, but given that the purchase of the slam door trains was part of a policy of safeguarding the future of the line, their replacement would appear to be a new policy of not safeguarding the future of the line.... so I suspect they either want to be rid of it completely, or get a subsidy from somewhere for running costs. Otherwise they will run it down to get passenger numbers to drop to the point where they can renegotiate the franchise to a Melksham-style token service.

I'm not having a go at SWT^▸ (South West Trains), they have a business to run and their priority is their shareholders, not the people of Lymington.

[paul7575]

The Lymington line isn't the only route where this happens though, it's just the highest profile amongst enthusiasts. There are a number of other SWT^▸ (South West Trains) diesel units diagrammed daily, mainly peak time extras, that ought to be EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) in an ideal world. Certainly if enough new EMUs were provided for SWT, they could potentially release half a dozen or more 158/159s. 

They might have major diagramming changes planned in December for the Exeter hourly service, but somehow I doubt it. I suspect the bottom line is that when SWT wanted to provide additional capacity on the SWML^▸ (South Western Mail Line) generally, DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) were all they were allowed to lease.

Paul

[John R]

Which services are these used on?   

[grahame]

The Lymington line isn't the only route where this happens though, it's just the highest profile amongst enthusiasts.

Thanks Paul and (like John R) I would be interested to learn which those others are.

I think the Lymington case is potentially a little different though, because SWT^▸ (South West Trains) does have electric trains which it can use on that line (and no other line afaik), so it's not a question of the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) not allowing them any electrics on lease.  The already have the electrics ... they bought them, they own them, don't they?

[paul7575]

I haven't got actual diagrams for the current period, but here are some typical services. Collectively, SWT^▸ (South West Trains) refer to them as 'Hampshire Locals'

0500 Portsmouth Hbr - Basingstoke 6.159
0655 Basingstoke - Southampton Ctrl 3.159
0702 Eastleigh -Portsmouth Hbr 2.158
0751 Southampton Ctrl - Portsmouth Hbr 3.159
0805 Portsmouth Hbr - Basingstoke 2.158
0933 Portsmouth Hbr - Southampton Ctrl 3.159
1624 Basingstoke - Portsmouth Hbr 6.159
1638 Winchester - Totton 2.158
1703 Portsmouth Hbr - Fareham 2.158
1724 Basingstoke - Southampton Ctrl 3.159
1817 Southampton Ctrl - Winchester 2.158
1905 Winchester - Southampton Ctrl 2.158
0030 Eastleigh - Portsmouth Hbr 2 158

1703/0030 is the whole diagram for that unit, it runs ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) from Salisbury to Portsmouth, and sits in Eastleigh yard all evening...

Paul

[John R]

Thanks. Puts the use of a 158 on the Lymington branch into context. It does appear that something isn't quite right here, especially since there are electic trains coming available. (OK, not obviously suited to SWT^▸ (South West Trains), but is there any reason why ex Overground 313s could not be used on one or two suburban lines - after all 508 stock worked the area when first built, before being banished to Merseyside?)

   

[Btline]

Whilst the loss of the slammers is perhaps negative, it is the use of DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) that annoys me.

Surely the "spares" argument could be solved by only running one slammer and using the other for spares.

The use of some spare Wessex Electrics somewhere could free up some 450s for the branch.

Or the LO units which are being replaced currently. What's happening to them?

Or old LU stock?

That 158 could be used on Transwilts, or to remove overcrowding on Liverpool - Norwich trains or ......

[paul7575]

All the Wessies are now allocated to Southern - there are no spares at Eastleigh anymore.
AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) most of the LO 313s are already allocated to Southern (to allow 10 car inner suburban services) and a few to FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) (for GN Moorgate service strengthening) and the 3 LO 508s are supposedly going to Merseyrail.

It's always seemed to me that SWT^▸ (South West Trains) were just 'in the right place at the right time' to corner the market in 158s when they became available - presumably they could let some go if DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) proposed a 'suitable business case' - I think that's the right term

Paul

[Btline]

All the Wessies are now allocated to Southern - there are no spares at Eastleigh anymore.

And they are all sitting around doing nothing in sidings at Brighton and Hove! Why do SN need all of these? (unless they are replacing 377s with Wessex Electrics on Brighton ML services).

[willc]

All the Wessies are now allocated to Southern - there are no spares at Eastleigh anymore.

And they are all sitting around doing nothing in sidings at Brighton and Hove! Why do SN need all of these? (unless they are replacing 377s with Wessex Electrics on Brighton ML services).

No, they're not all sitting around in sidings doing nothing - 17 are in the active fleet and the rest are all slated for refurbishment. According to Modern Railways (I think?) a leasing company's cunning plan to get SWT^▸ (South West Trains) some extra electric stock involves Southern using all the 442s for Gatwick and Brighton work, freeing up the eight Gatwick Express class 460s, which would then be broken up to turn their 458 cousins into five-car sets and create some shortened 460s as well, which SWT would take on. Presumably all this will take a while to organise (December next year?) if it's a serious propostion, but you may just find that an electric set is available for Lymington as a result.

It's all very well banging on about it but SWT is already paying for the DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit). Why would they want to take on 508s, which would cost them extra in lease fees and be just as non-standard for them operationally as the slam-door sets?

I don't remember anyone getting so exercised on here about the former Wolverhampton-Walsall service, which was DMUs on a route that was entirely electrified except for the north to east curve at Bescot.

[paul7575]

No, they're not all sitting around in sidings doing nothing - 17 are in the active fleet and the rest are all slated for refurbishment. According to Modern Railways (I think?) a leasing company's cunning plan to get SWT^▸ (South West Trains) some extra electric stock involves Southern using all the 442s for Gatwick and Brighton work, freeing up the eight Gatwick Express class 460s, which would then be broken up to turn their 458 cousins into five-car sets and create some shortened 460s as well, which SWT would take on. Presumably all this will take a while to organise (December next year?) if it's a serious propostion, but you may just find that an electric set is available for Lymington as a result.

SWT's requirement is for 140 additional vehicles for the full 10 car suburban services, gradually building up in the years 2012-14 The 460 fleet can provide a minority of that requirement, and is apparently with Southern until at least mid 2011. That assumes all the 442s will be updated by then, which could easily happen. But from what they are suggesting about remodelling the 460s, I'd expect a fairly long period in the works, around 2 years maybe?  Then even with the 460s, there still needs to be another 90 or so vehicles, because somehow 90 455s also need to be effectively lengthened by one car each. How that is achieved remains a mystery, although a 10 car formation (3+4+3) has been run as a test, relocating trailers doesn't really help, as running 5+5 sets is seriously underpowered...

Can't really see any early reduction in DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) usage therefore.

Paul

[Btline]

No, they're not all sitting around in sidings doing nothing

They were a few weeks back! Unless they are being refurbed while they sit in the sidings...

Anyway your post confirms what I expected, BML trains will be Wessex Electrics (good, I like 377s a lot, but I'd expect a lot more for the BML, esp in First Class!)

Willc, the reason the Walsall to Wolverhampton is DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) operated is because they once ran to Wellington. This got cut to one train a day, then none.

[grahame]

[snip] ....

Can't really see any early reduction in DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) usage therefore.

Paul

Paul, I really appreciate your inputs / listing of units that are diesel but running electric line services - looks like it could be up to 3 x 159 and 2 x 158 in the late afternoon, rather fewer in the morning.   And for your explanations of "why".

It's all very well banging on about it but SWT^▸ (South West Trains) is already paying for the DMU. Why would they want to take on 508s, which would cost them extra in lease fees and be just as non-standard for them operationally as the slam-door sets?

I don't remember anyone getting so exercised on here about the former Wolverhampton-Walsall service, which was DMUs on a route that was entirely electrified except for the north to east curve at Bescot.

I think I am one getting a little 'exercised' here  ... but I am / was doing so concerning Lymington, where there are already electric trains doing the job, and trains which SWT own to boot. 

Using a small buffer of diesel trains to run electric line services (any buffering has to work that way - you can't run an electric train on a diesel line!) is fair enough - I was asking a corrollary question there as I didn't know the situation on the Hampshire locals.  And that applies on Walsall / Wolverhapmton (to a lesser degree because it isn't fully electrified) and even on the East Coast main line and some of the Virgin services (hang on - this is no SMALL buffer .... it's starting to look like a serious electric train shortage!)

Exercised on Lymington?  Yes - it's not buffering.   It's removal of two trains / one diagram from the network, and trains that were placed there with a great fanfare to save the line.

.... given that the purchase of the slam door trains was part of a policy of safeguarding the future of the line, their replacement would appear to be a new policy of not safeguarding the future of the line ....

Yep, one does wonder why the change of heart, to what looks like a more expensive solution, one which appears to kick the local stakeholders in the face, and one which reduces (yes, by just one more) the precious stock of diesel trains.   Did SWT miscalculate when they "went heritage", or did they always intend it to be just short term thing, whether or not they told people its interim nature?

[paul7575]

SWT^▸ (South West Trains)'s current dispensation to use Mark 1 stock expires March 2013, so there always was a chop date. Not sure if it was ever widely publicised though.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1247

A check of a few of the other operators listed seems to have all mainline registered Mark 1 stock end dated together, I haven't seen anything yet about another stay of execution for the railtour operators, but it may be there somewhere.

Paul