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Author Topic: Great Western Railway: on-board catering, buffets, Travelling Chef, Pullman - ongoing discussion  (Read 629188 times)
IndustryInsider
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« Reply #735 on: July 30, 2014, 14:23:40 »

Agreed, so either a trolley *or* a caf^-bar, but not both. Hence knocking out option 2. And rather points to 1

If there was a trolley service only, and I am in agreement with you that it would be a great shame if there was, then at least having the 'servery' rather than a cafe-bar would mean that provisions available from the trolley could be of a wider range and higher quality than many current trolley services which rely on replenishment at stations en-route.  A trolley service is most desirable for some passengers - those with mobility issues of various sorts and those that don't want to leave their seat (which is a higher number than some would have you believe), but I really hope the cafe-bar is included as the specification allows.
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« Reply #736 on: July 30, 2014, 15:30:31 »

I'm not sure I quite understand that. If there is a buffet of any kind then it needs to be staffed, so surely they'd want to maximise the number of potential users to justify its costs?

I do not believe that the intention is to provide a buffet in the accepted sense of the word, i.e. a counter at which food and drinks are served direct to the customer.

I believe that the intention is to provide a kitchen for meal service to first class only, and presumably to serve light snacks and drinks at the table in first class, the staff fetching these items from the kitchen.
I doubt that the intention is to provide customer facing buffet counter staff, what would be the point ? whom would they serve if first get table service and therefore don't need counter service.

Trolley service only in steerage class, and probably a static trolley at that since I doubt that a trolley could pass through the crowds of standees and their luggage on the new shorter trains.


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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #737 on: July 30, 2014, 15:54:19 »

There is talk of hot (microwaveable) food like bacon & sausage rolls in the Travelling Chef consultation going on now - looks like this is in preparation for dropping even these as trolleys can't supply....
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« Reply #738 on: July 30, 2014, 17:05:49 »

CrossCountry manage to supply hot items 'from' their trolleys.

I say 'from'. Ordered at seat as the trolley passes through and the host (or the grandly titled Retail Services Manager as XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) call them) returns to the front/rear of the Voyager and prepares them in the kitchen area, then delivers to your seat. Bacon rolls in the morning. Burgers, panino and microwave meals throughout the day.
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« Reply #739 on: July 30, 2014, 17:09:39 »

And make little attempt at actually selling them. In my experience, *never* heard mention of them by the trolley seller. Ever.
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« Reply #740 on: July 30, 2014, 17:18:23 »

There have been competitions and incentives to try and get hot food sales up on XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)), though in reality they're only going to be heavily pushed when the train is double staffed with a first class host, that way they can call through to get them cooked (they're delivered to the first class end during the week) rather than having to abandon the trolley and all it's stock to go cook the food and bring it back. Some of the stewards will do a 'for the next fifteen minutes' announcement at the start of the day whilst they're setting up the trolley for anyone wanting hot food to come and collect it so many will sell all the hot items and then concentrate on selling what's left. Another way they do it is to sell the item and send the customer down to first class with the receipt for the first class host to cook it. Depends on the individual crews and the stopping patterns on the route too.
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« Reply #741 on: July 30, 2014, 18:09:26 »

CrossCountry manage to supply hot items 'from' their trolleys.

I say 'from'. Ordered at seat as the trolley passes through and the host (or the grandly titled Retail Services Manager as XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) call them) returns to the front/rear of the Voyager and prepares them in the kitchen area, then delivers to your seat. Bacon rolls in the morning. Burgers, panino and microwave meals throughout the day.
Now, if you could order a full cooked meal (beans on toast at a minimum) from the trolley host who would call through to the kitchen in 1st class to get it cooked and delivered to your seat, that might actually be better than the buffet (although quite a long treck for the staff member bringing the food).

To be pedantically accurate, one should state that the new trains "have no buffet for standard class, but might have it for first class only (who don't really need a buffet anyway as hopefully table service will be provided in first)"

Or even more accurate we should state that we don't have any new trains yet.  All we have is draft layout proposals which I've told you before that FGW (First Great Western) were not necessarily happy with and could specify a change, and a train specification which quite clearly leaves the option of having a Standard Class accessible buffet as an option:

"Level 2 - Servery that provides hot and cold snacks and drinks which may be delivered by either of the following methods:

1) An at seat first class service together with the replenishment of trolleys for standard class service without the provision of a Caf^-Bar counter service; or

2) The replenishment of trolleys and the provision of a Caf^-Bar counter service combined together"


I personally will be very disappointed if option 2 isn't chosen for the FGW layout, but will wait until I see the final layouts before I presume anything.
The first trains are already under construction. The two critial issues I have with IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) (driving vehicle : intermediate vehicle ratio and lack of intermediate buffet vehicles) will be extremely hard to resolve once series production starts. I appreciate that the TOCs (Train Operating Company) are supposed to have a say on the issue and have tried contacting FirstGW to try and encourage them to get the plans changed from the current drafts, so far I haven't got a reassuring response.
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« Reply #742 on: July 30, 2014, 19:05:24 »

The first trains are already under construction.

Pre-production test trains are under construction.
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« Reply #743 on: July 31, 2014, 09:43:21 »

The first trains are already under construction.

Pre-production test trains are under construction.

And where are the kitchens located within these test trains?
Presumably in the first class driving vehicles as was implied in the original drawings.
And does anyone really believe that this will be altered in some or all of the production trains ?

I can hear the weasel words already

"too late, regretfully to alter this now proven design"
"would add costs to a project on which value for money is vital"
"would cause delays and we are keen to get the new trains into service as quickly as possible"
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard.
It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc.
A 5 car DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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« Reply #744 on: July 31, 2014, 10:17:28 »

Probably true though
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« Reply #745 on: July 31, 2014, 13:02:37 »

I should imagine the first train will be little more than a shell inside initially - you don't want unnecessary furnishings getting in the way of access to the more important train systems during the test phase.
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« Reply #746 on: July 31, 2014, 21:28:00 »

And make little attempt at actually selling them. In my experience, *never* heard mention of them by the trolley seller. Ever.

Two CrossCountry Voyager trips last week. The 0800 Bristol to Birmingham on Wednesday with the Retail Service Manager pushing the bacon rolls with announcements on departure from Bristol Parkway and Cheltenham Spa. Then on Thursday I caught the 1127 from Manchester to Reading. Again the Retail Service Manager regularly announced the hot food items. 
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« Reply #747 on: July 31, 2014, 22:09:15 »

My last experience of XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) 'catering' in steerage, was on trip to B'ham from Temple Meads where we were informed on leaving Bristol that there were only a few bacon delicacies left and if we wanted one we should go to 1st Class to collect them.  Somewhere nearer Bromsgrove than Ashchurch and therefore not long before scheduled arrival at my destination the trolley appeared. It was sensible by then to await arrival at Birmingham and use my Bite card at one of the myriad outlets offering coffee.  I fear I wasn't the only one to forego the offering. 

Trollies, it seems, make more money than buffets.  I have yet to be convinced they offer the traveller the consistent service they promise and I share the concerns about the next step down in quality in inter-city services serving the FGW (First Great Western) area.
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #748 on: August 04, 2014, 21:48:33 »

From The Independent:

Quote
Restaurateur Mitch Tonks has given the Great Western Pullman dining car a makeover

Clare Hargreaves jumped aboard the 12:06 from Paddington to Penzance for a sit-down lunch of local ingredients

We've barely creaked out of Paddington before a leather-bound menu is thrust into my hands, and Royal Oak, the stop a few minutes on, sees the delivery of fresh bread rolls and a pat of farmhouse butter as the seats around me fill in response to a Tannoy announcement. By Reading, I'm in full lunch flow, devouring a plateful of salmon artfully cured by Somerset's Brown and Forrest smokery ^ and wondering if I'm dreaming.

I'm not ^ I'm in the Great Western Pullman dining car on the 12:06 from Paddington to Penzance. (The name Pullman refers to George Pullman, who introduced lavish dining cars to US trains in 1868.) As I nibble my salmon starter (^10), I reflect that there can be few more civilised pleasures known to mobile man than enjoying good, freshly cooked food against a backdrop of ever-changing scenery. It certainly helps pass a journey in a way that a novel or newspaper can't ^ and every human needs to eat, so trains have a captive audience.

It seems extraordinary that while everywhere else, from the high street to airlines and airports, is upping their food game, the only alternative to the trolley or overcrowded buffet car on trains ^ with the exception of certain First Great Western (FGW (First Great Western)) ones ^ is the at-your-seat airline-style plastic tray (and that's a "privilege" reserved for first class only). Surely you take the train precisely because you can walk around rather than having to be imprisoned in your seat. And what could be nicer than "going out" ^ or at least "along" ^ to lunch?

Ever since East Coast trains called last orders on its restaurant cars in 2011 after its predecessor, National Express, made massive losses, rail companies here and across Europe have argued that Pullman dining cars don't pay and that customers don't want them. Even French railways have scrapped them except on certain international services. Bravely ^ some would say foolhardily ^ First Great Western kept its Pullman going and has now given it a makeover by employing Devon-based restaurateur Mitch Tonks to develop menus using quality ingredients from within 15 miles of the line. "It started after Phil Edgerton, our head of marketing, ate at Mitch's Dartmouth restaurant and sampled some fresh prawns that Mitch's daughter had just caught," Jo Elliott, FGW spokesman, says. "Phil said: 'Why can't we do this on the train?'"

It might not be quite the Paris-Istanbul Orient Express, whose inaugural 1883 restaurant coach, panelled in mahogany and teak, ushered in the golden era of railway dining in Europe. (The first British train to host a dining car was the Great Northern Railway, which started serving hot meals, cooked over an open fire, in 1879). Our glasses are from ordinary glass, not Baccarat crystal, and tablecloths are paper instead of starched damask linen. But our white china plates with their pukka red Pullman logos, the soothing clinking of glasses and the chatty service all create a pleasing feeling of lunchtime ritual. Plus ^ and this is a big plus ^ our sit-down lunch is an excuse for us second-class mortals to enjoy the spacious, leathery comforts of first class.

Clare, our smartly uniformed "service leader" ^ trainspeak for front of house ^ has just braved a particularly jolty stretch of line to bring my main. "You get used to the movement," she says, watching the glasses on my table slide gently. I faced a tough choice between South-west coast-landed lemon sole with brown shrimps (^25) or Somerset-reared fillet steak with Caf^ de Paris butter (^28) but the steak has won, if only to give me an excuse to enjoy a miniature pot of Tracklements mustard (made due north of where we now are) and a 500ml bottle of Ramon Bilbao Rioja (^20), which is going down nicely.

As we whizz past a white horse etched on the chalky Wiltshire Downs, I notice an interesting sound above the thundering of the engine and the clinking of glasses: the happy hum of human chat. Having been seated at tables of two or four, my fellow lunchers have struck up conversations, some so animated you'd think that those involved had known each other for years. Next to us a man on his way to his daughter's graduation in Exeter is chatting with a retired gentleman from Rock. Behind, a group of four have stumbled across the Pullman lunch as a delicious way of entertaining granny on the five-and-a-half-hour journey to Penzance. It feels more like a supper club than a British train carriage. And not a laptop in sight.

The mechanics of producing our three-course lunches from the tiniest kitchen imaginable, with just minutes to prepare, are a logistical marvel. Cooking in constant motion is not for everyone, but chef Pete Downham used to work in the merchant navy so is unfazed. Today there's a hiccup ^ the oven isn't working ^ so Pete is masterfully making do with a grill. Some of the dining-car food is pre-prepared, of course, but to the company's great credit, fish, steak and vegetables are all loaded in Plymouth and cooked from fresh.

The train has reached the lush pastures of Somerset, so Clare takes our dessert orders. There's no time to waste, as many passengers will be getting out at Exeter and all traces of lunch need to be cleared by Plymouth. I plump for the chocolate-orange mousse, with candied orange peel, at ^9. Again, it's a difficult choice, as the artisan British cheese selection looks tempting, too. It's followed by tea (disappointingly, Lipton, but at least it's with real milk) and mints, which I spin out as long as possible as we imbibe the most spectacular views of the journey: Dawlish Warren with its sand dunes, bobbing boats and glistening seas. Our train hovers so close to the water it's hard to believe we're not actually in it.

It's time to settle up. My three courses come to ^47. I shared my wine with my companion, so my drink costs an extra ^10, making a total of ^57. Not cheap, but judging from the feedback on TripAdvisor and my fellow lunchers, not outrageous if you take into account the top-class local ingredients plus the convenience, the entertainment and the chance to travel first class for a couple of hours. Many passengers tell me that they never knew about the dining car but have been pleasantly surprised and will now book trains that have them ^ only three each way daily on the Paddington-Penzance at present, although there are plans to introduce them on the Paddington-Swansea line next month, too. Others say they're already in the know and pick their trains accordingly. "It's a well-kept foodies' secret," one passenger, visiting family in Newton Abbot, tells me. "It's tempting not to tell anyone in case we can't get in. But I really hope it flourishes."

So, can the Pullman pay its way? FGW's Elliott admits that staffing costs make this difficult. "We have to take a holistic view. We believe the dining car adds to customer perception. We hope it'll become a point of difference, a reason to take the train." From what I've seen today, it might well.

The seagulls herald our arrival at Plymouth, my destination. For once I'm wishing my journey hadn't flashed by so quickly, so I could have a few more hours to savour the Pullman's food and company. Perhaps First Great Western could ask their drivers to drive a little more slowly next time.
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« Reply #749 on: August 04, 2014, 22:25:22 »

The Smokery mentioned in the above article is just round the corner from my present location. I'm at Mumsy's in Curry Rivel and if the weather is set fair tomorrow I may well take a walk down the lanes to Hambridge and get me some smoked goodies. Particularly tempted by the smoked garlic they're advertising on their website.

http://www.smokedeel.co.uk/acatalog/About_the_Smokery.html

I have no connection with this business. Except eating their produce on the FGW (First Great Western) Pullman of course!

And i totally agree with Clare. I'll tell anyone who will listen that there is no better way to experience fine dining than with an ever-changing scenery.
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