Great Western Railway: on-board catering, buffets, Travelling Chef, Pullman - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

The problem appears to be not first class meal provision, but that catering for steerage is being downgraded to a trolley. I seldom agree with the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) dinosaurs, but over this particular issue I do agree with them.

Its stupid to pick a fight with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) as stated above - they need to lobby the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) who will specify the layout that they'll be paying for & That FGW will receive delivery. I guess that FGW could then pay to put them in before delivery? But they need to know what they're getting first, and negotiations are quite possibly ongoing as I type

[JayMac]

Do we know for certain that FirstGroup have any say in the internal layout of the Class 800/801s?

It seems a little perverse if they do. They could end up not operating them. Or only operating them for a relatively short period. At the moment all we know is FirstGroup are at the helm on the Greater Western franchise until September 2015.

[Network SouthEast]

Do we know for certain that FirstGroup have any say in the internal layout of the Class 700/701s?

It seems a little perverse if they do. They could end up not operating them. Or only operating them for a relatively short period. At the moment all we know is FirstGroup are at the helm on the Greater Western franchise until September 2015.

I suppose having the final say is perhaps not the same as having an input.

First Great Western has had input in to the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) design to some extent. There have certainly been workshops with drivers involving Hitachi to help refine the cab layout. I suspect other departments (such as engineering for example) have made inputs about the parts of the trains that are relevant to them.

However, East Coast has also had the same chance to make inputs. So the final product may not quite be how FGW^▸ (First Great Western) want it.

There is a precedent for TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) specifying trains they might never operate. Southern procured the class 387s for the TSGN franchise (which at the time hadn't been awarded to GoVia). First Capital Connect, had also been involved in the specification of the class 800/801 Thameslink trains for the TSGN franchise (which at the time hadn't been awarded).

In the case of the IEP and Thameslink fleets, both are being ordered by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about), so this may have some bearing of the decisions being made before they are delivered.

[ChrisB]

The DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) will specify what they're willing to guarantee the debt for - any improvement/amends to that spec that the operator wants will need to be paid for by them.

Currently -

a) The DfT is negotiating with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) for a Direct Award to start in September
b) Until the operator has this contracted, it can't sign for any improvements

I suspect other departments (such as engineering for example) have made inputs about the parts of the trains that are relevant to them.

Hmm, ....Hitachi are maintaining these trains, not FGW engineers. Yes, some may TUPE^▸ (The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006.) over I guess?

[TaplowGreen]

I'm wondering whether this is one of those issues (perhaps like the Night Riviera?) that means a great deal to rail staff/enthusiasts however isn't really a concern for the vast majority of the travelling public?

I didn't hear too much wailing and gnashing of teeth when Travelling Chef was scrapped, and only a tiny minority of passengers use the Pullman - most stations of any size have catering outlets now which sort of undermines on train catering as a necessity, and if it was profitable for the railways they would be going out of their way to ensure there was provision on new trains.

The general rule with these things is if you don't use it, you lose it.

Maybe a sandwich/tea trolley is all that is really needed/wanted?

[Super Guard]

I'm wondering whether this is one of those issues (perhaps like the Night Riviera?) that means a great deal to rail staff/enthusiasts however isn't really a concern for the vast majority of the travelling public?

As per my previous post when you made the same ridiculous statement about the Night Riviera which you chose to ignore - tosh.  Having checked tickets on many Pullman services out of London in the evening, many many business and leisure people travelling long distance use the Pullman service.  They are clearly not enthusiasts.  They are people who see the value of the service.  I am sure some see it as a cheap first class upgrade, whereas others want the experience of fine dining at 100mph+.  Again, just because you don't think the cost is worth paying, does not mean others think the same.  Certainly on Thursday/Friday nights, passengers are turned away from the 1803/1903 sittings.  With the reduction in first class capacity where the Pullman would normally spill into the old coach G, I believe a full sitting is achieved on other nights too.

I didn't hear too much wailing and gnashing of teeth when Travelling Chef was scrapped, and only a tiny minority of passengers use the Pullman - most stations of any size have catering outlets now which sort of undermines on train catering as a necessity, and if it was profitable for the railways they would be going out of their way to ensure there was provision on new trains.

Not much wailing and gnashing as the TC^‡(resolve) service was underused, hence why even the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) accepted the inevitable fate (of course a bit of protesting aside).

The general rule with these things is if you don't use it, you lose it.

A statement I do agree with.

[JayMac]

I think many on this thread did their bit to promote the Travelling Chef service. I was certainly one of those who regularly extolled the virtues of having a chef freshly prepare hot food, either plated in 1st Class or take away in Standard. I was also firmly in the use it or lose it camp. Sadly, my using it wasn't enough. Too many people didn't bother and FGW^▸ (First Great Western) never really promoted the Travelling Chef services.

That's where we have a difference with the Pullmans. Since FGW linked up with award winning chef and restaurateur Mitch Tonks the Pulllmans have gone from strength to strength. Four Pullmans a day in 2012, but now ten. Shortly to be twelve, with strong rumours of another two later this year for a total of fourteen. There has been consistent and ongoing promotion from FGW with station posters, social media pieces, high quality YouTube infomercials and regular articles in the print media, including articles by restaurant critics and articles in railway magazines.

There has been a new menu introduced in the past couple of weeks, and accompanying that is another YouTube video from FGW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP9GIGmeY7Q

I like to think I (and others) have done our bit here as well. We aren't paid by FGW to sing the praises of the Pullmans, but we do so because it is damn good food prepared and served by damn good FGW staff.

So, USE IT OR LOSE IT. 

[JayMac]

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) of late in their Express Cafe's have seriously up'd their game. Pasties are provided in proper cardboard boxes as opposed to White Paper Bags.

..........there is nothing wrong with serving a pasty in a white paper bag, it's what God intended white paper bags were used for! 

So, is God a Cornishman? 

[broadgage]

I seldom used the travelling chef service, much preferring the Pullman.
As noted above, the Pullman was often well patronised with many business and leisure customers paying a first class fare so as to be (reasonably) certain of a seat in the restaurant.
Some certainly looked on the restaurant as being a cheap upgrade to first class, and became most aggrieved when the Pullman was full of first class customers.
Until recently, I used the "Golden Hind" fairly regularly and invariably purchased a full first class open ticket in order to enjoy the Pullman.
For my return trips into London I usually purchased only a steerage ticket and hoped for the best ! if no restaurant was available on the earlier train, I preferred to wait for the later one.

The provision of a full service "fine dining" restaurant certainly influenced my choice of travel mode. As a result , I regularly spent ^175 on the ticket, ^100 in the restaurant, and perhaps another ^80 on taxi transfers.
A decent car and driver would not have cost much more, and without the on train restaurant might have been my preferred choice.

[TaplowGreen]

I'm wondering whether this is one of those issues (perhaps like the Night Riviera?) that means a great deal to rail staff/enthusiasts however isn't really a concern for the vast majority of the travelling public?

As per my previous post when you made the same ridiculous statement about the Night Riviera which you chose to ignore - tosh.  Having checked tickets on many Pullman services out of London in the evening, many many business and leisure people travelling long distance use the Pullman service.  They are clearly not enthusiasts.  They are people who see the value of the service.  I am sure some see it as a cheap first class upgrade, whereas others want the experience of fine dining at 100mph+.  Again, just because you don't think the cost is worth paying, does not mean others think the same.  Certainly on Thursday/Friday nights, passengers are turned away from the 1803/1903 sittings.  With the reduction in first class capacity where the Pullman would normally spill into the old coach G, I believe a full sitting is achieved on other nights too.

I didn't hear too much wailing and gnashing of teeth when Travelling Chef was scrapped, and only a tiny minority of passengers use the Pullman - most stations of any size have catering outlets now which sort of undermines on train catering as a necessity, and if it was profitable for the railways they would be going out of their way to ensure there was provision on new trains.

Not much wailing and gnashing as the TC^‡(resolve) service was underused, hence why even the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) accepted the inevitable fate (of course a bit of protesting aside).

The general rule with these things is if you don't use it, you lose it.

A statement I do agree with.

When you've settled down and wiped the froth from your mouth you may care to read what I actually wrote in the first para, which was a question, not a statement. I don't doubt that the Pullman is popular, I didn't suggest that it wasn't, what I said was that only a tiny minority of customers use it - which is irrefutably true!

It is a niche, high end, high price service on a few trains targeted at a particular market segment (in the same way as fine dining restaurants) - it's not "catering provision" in the way that a buffet car or even Travelling Chef was.

Broadgage's later post illustrates it perfectly............but just for fun let's say I fancy taking Mrs TPG on the Pullman (so to speak) for dinner and a trip to Plymouth in a couple of weeks to see TPGs senior.....I'll look at the prices on one of the services you reference, the 1803 - 2 x First Advance singles @ ^119.50 each (to ensure we get a table), + 2 x 3 course dinners and a bottle of wine on board......approx ^130........so that's roughly ^370, and we've still got to get home at some stage!

And yes I'm sure there are ways of doing it slightly cheaper but I'm sticking to your example. How many people do you honestly think can take that as an option?

Travelling Chef was more aimed at the masses but it was too expensive and not what people wanted so it failed and was withdrawn with barely a whisper. Businesses will only supply something if there is demand for it - there is clearly demand for the "niche" Pullman offering and so it is being extended, but will only ever remain an option for a very small number of customers - good luck to them, I hope they enjoy it.

I, along with most mortals, will opt for my own provision, maybe a pasty in a white paper bag............and for the benefit of BNM - God was not a Cornishman, he was actually from Plymouth, but occasionally strolled over to the Western bank of the Tamar when he felt like slumming it! 

Have a good weekend all!

[Rhydgaled]

Why would FGW^▸ (First Great Western) go to the trouble of marketing an extremely well used Pullman Service to the point of extending it to other services across the network - only to shelve it the moment the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) appears?

Unless FGW plan to use the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) for Pullmans and run Diesel under wires to Swansea / Newbury (for Plymouth / Penzance) which is ludicrous in it's own right.

Not to mention an appalling waste of unnecessary fossil fuel. (Appreciate this happens already on many routes - but mainly for the last mile where electric locomotives cannot be used due to Technical Reasons or Lack of Knitting)

Someone, somewhere, isn't telling us the whole story. Unless the ultimately depressing fact is that the plan is to migrate the Pullmans into a complimentary First Class service as per the likes of ICEC / ICWC^▸ (InterCity West Coast)...

The plan at the moment I think is to run IC125s under the wires to Newbury on all the Plymouth/Penzance runs. I personally think that is a good idea considering Newbury to Penzance is a heck of a long way and it would be underfloor diesel engines if IEP was used (and class 222s have apparently been rejected by stakeholders due to cramped interiors and underfloor diesel engines), and you can't exactly axe through trains to Devon and Cornwall. Also, IEP was claimed to be able to do Cardiff-Swansea in the same amount of time whether the route was electrified or not, which suggests that IEP on diesel has been designed to accelerate like an EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit). And we know what happens if you try and do that: fuel consumption gets massive. I would therefore be supprised if an IC125 uses more diesel from PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) to Penzance than an IEP 9-car bi-mode from Newbury to Penzance.

As for the Pullmans, the reply I've had from FirstGW claims IEP extends the catering offer, by having a kitchen in every set rather than some IC125s having "standalone buffets" but not a kicthen. They said "no firm decision has yet been made" but reading between the lines it sounded like making Pullman dining a FirstClass-only product in future was one of the options they are looking at. Not sure if I'm allowed to quote the full text of their e-mail.

[TonyK]

So, is God a Cornishman? 

"Our Father, which art in Helston...

... and lead us not into Tintagel..."

More dreckly.

[JayMac]

In full:

Our father, who art in Helston
Helford be thy name
Thy Kenwyn come
Thy will be Ruan
St Erth but not in Devon
Give us this day our Cornish Pasty
And forgive us our Tresparrett
As we forgive those who Trevarth against us
And lead us not not into Tintagel
For thine is the Kingsand
The Padstow and the Fowey
For East Looe and Eggbeare

Bodmin

[thetrout]

I guess I should clarify my points in my previous post - as I can't even understand what I was explaining...

I was more getting at using IC125's for a journey that is under wires for 100% of the booked journey. Just seems a bit farcical to use a 40 year old train on a newly electrified railway just for a Pullman Service... That being said I would almost certainly prefer HST^▸ (High Speed Train) to IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.). But HSTs cannot last for ever

I quite agree - using Bi-mode or IC125 for Plymouth/Penzance - London Paddington is feasible. I wasn't for a moment suggesting that Passengers for such journeys should have to change.

My comments on using Diesel under wires where East Coast and Virgin West Coast use Diesel trains to complete the "last mile" of the journey where Electric Trains cannot be used due to Technical Reasons (such as Class 323 and Class 91s near Lincoln IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly)?) or lack of knitting (Anything beyond Crewe for Chester/Wrexham/Holyhead)


As for the Travelling Chef - I am bitterly disappointed that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) withdrew this. But in honesty it was destined to fail. It was frequently unavailable, poorly advertised and just seemed a little unloved. For me the Pullmans are a great thing. But the food is too formal for my liking. However on the few occasions I have used the pullman, the service has been faultless.

Sadly the Pullman has only 1 Vegetarian course of dishes. Quite often containing Goats Cheese or high tomato content. I also don't get what it is with Restaurants obsessing that all Vegetarians like Goats Cheese and Nut Roasts - Both revolting

With the TC^‡(resolve) I felt that there were more vegetarian options and the food was less fancy. I've said this time and time again:
1) If I ask for a plate of vegetables. I don't want cauliflower cheese.
2) If I ask for Egg and Chips. I don't want eggs laden with spinach and tomato dressing.

At least with the TC if I asked for Cheese and Mushrooms on Toast. I got cheese and mushrooms on toast


Now the paper bag dispute. Ok it doesn't apply to pasties so much I accept. But this however is extremely irritating:




Now for a short Pullman Lunch. Taunton - Westbury on Monday. 14:24

3 Diners already mid meal. Myself and 1 other joined at Taunton. As I got the menus mixed up. I had just the Red Pepper and Cornish Yarg Tart as a Main Course with a small amount of vegetables. However the Waitress just charged me the starter price. I would have willingly paid the main course price however.

The Tart was very good. Albeit served at luke warm temperature. I was intending to have a 2 course meal and double back at Reading using the Newbury Easement. But as the main course contained my arch nemesis of ingredients. I had the starter and jumped off at Westbury to connect for the 15:38 Weymouth train.

[bobm]

There has been a subtle change to the crab starter on menu two.  Previously it was served in a small dish with a tasty spicy sauce.

It is now served in the shell with mayonnaise - still very tasty.