Conditions of carriage, is it enforced?

[whole diary]

[vacman]

I don't know what everyone elses view of this subject is, but whenever I work a train I always stick to the Conditions of carriage when selling tickets, i.e. I only sell full singles or returns when passengers who board at staffed stations don't bother to buy their tickets before boarding the train, what really annoys me is my "colleagues" who don't do it that are just encouraging fare evasion.

When we started enforcing this properly we noticed a real drop in the number of people who boarded without tickets because most of them were "opportunist" fare dodgers, the type who get on the train right at the front away from the guard, they'll pay if you get to them but they have every intention of avoiding their fare, but when faced with the prospect of paying a higher fare they came around.

But when guards don't enforce the conditions of carriage there is no deterrent to the opportunist who when challenged will then only pay what they would have paid if they had bothered to buy a ticket like all of the other honest passengers.

Too many guards seem to think that by selling the cheaper tickets on train that they have an easy life, well maybe they do, but they're just making life harder for the people who do their job properly, what are passengers view of this subject???

[Ollie]

Same in ticket office, somebody will bend a rule, and then customer will expect you to do the same thing.

"Sorry mate but the guy last time did it for me"

and then when you refuse get called all names under the sun.

Staff do really need to keep to the rules.

[grahame]

Too many guards seem to think that by selling the cheaper tickets on train that they have an easy life, well maybe they do, but they're just making life harder for the people who do their job properly, what are passengers view of this subject?

I'm expressing a view on the whole subject .. not just this one paragraph.

I am all in favour of a system which places a degree of penalty on someone who intentionally and avoidably flouts the system, certainly if it's as an attempt to reduce (perhaps to nill) what they pay. Whatever it may be called technically, the issuing of a full price single where a cheap single is available for the same journey on the same train is a penalty.

However ... the system is highly complex and has holes in it, and it seems all too easy for it to catch people who are unintentionally on its wrong side - those who don't understand the system who make a mistake, or who fall through some sort of gap.   I'm sure that, as a conductor, you've "seen it all before"  ; you are telling us (as I read it) that you believe that the majority of people who buy tickets on the train are trying to cheat, quoting the way that on-train sales drop when the "full fare only" rule is knowingly enforced as evidence - well I won't disagree, but how can you be sure that the person in front of you really was trying to cheat the system - that their reason that "only one ticket desk open - I got there 15 minutes ahead but was still in the queue as the train puled in" isn't correct this time? You can so easily penalise the innocent, and an innocent person wrongly penalised is a very bad long term ambassador indeed.

I wish I had a solution.  An easy system that we could all understand that wasn't so complex that even the more knowledgable ones amongst the travelling public simply don't knwo what to do in certain circumstances.   A system that sells (online) a ticket for a specific train / date and then (3 times) at Paddington he's told he CANNOT use it ... and (3 times) that he CAN ... well - I was lost for words!  Would it have been / was it fair to then penalise the traveller, if he still dared to board, by requiring him to buy a full fare single if you (as the conductor) were sure that he should not travel on that ticket? The case in point is a Peterborough to Melksham Saver return, and the question is whether or not it was valid on the 17:30 from Paddington which is the only train of the day, Monday to Firday, with a connection to Melksham.

[vacman]

Too many guards seem to think that by selling the cheaper tickets on train that they have an easy life, well maybe they do, but they're just making life harder for the people who do their job properly, what are passengers view of this subject?

I'm expressing a view on the whole subject .. not just this one paragraph.

I am all in favour of a system which places a degree of penalty on someone who intentionally and avoidably flouts the system, certainly if it's as an attempt to reduce (perhaps to nill) what they pay. Whatever it may be called technically, the issuing of a full price single where a cheap single is available for the same journey on the same train is a penalty.

However ... the system is highly complex and has holes in it, and it seems all too easy for it to catch people who are unintentionally on its wrong side - those who don't understand the system who make a mistake, or who fall through some sort of gap.   I'm sure that, as a conductor, you've "seen it all before"  ; you are telling us (as I read it) that you believe that the majority of people who buy tickets on the train are trying to cheat, quoting the way that on-train sales drop when the "full fare only" rule is knowingly enforced as evidence - well I won't disagree, but how can you be sure that the person in front of you really was trying to cheat the system - that their reason that "only one ticket desk open - I got there 15 minutes ahead but was still in the queue as the train puled in" isn't correct this time? You can so easily penalise the innocent, and an innocent person wrongly penalised is a very bad long term ambassador indeed.

I wish I had a solution.  An easy system that we could all understand that wasn't so complex that even the more knowledgable ones amongst the travelling public simply don't knwo what to do in certain circumstances.   A system that sells (online) a ticket for a specific train / date and then (3 times) at Paddington he's told he CANNOT use it ... and (3 times) that he CAN ... well - I was lost for words!  Would it have been / was it fair to then penalise the traveller, if he still dared to board, by requiring him to buy a full fare single if you (as the conductor) were sure that he should not travel on that ticket? The case in point is a Peterborough to Melksham Saver return, and the question is whether or not it was valid on the 17:30 from Paddington which is the only train of the day, Monday to Firday, with a connection to Melksham.

I can see both points of view here, but, the conditions of carriage are quite clear on the subject. According to the ticket examiners handbook "neither a queue at a ticket office or a customers late arrival at a station are a valid reason to join a train without a valid ticket", OK disgression is something that should allways be used, but would you walk out of Tesco with your shopping because there was a queue at the checkout and and if noone challenges you just steal it? because thats what these opportunist fare dodgers are basicly doing, and it does contribute to fare rises!

To penalise someone who arrived at the station late may seem unfair but I don't think it is, I notice on my travels that it's the same people every day who were late, if they can't be bothered to get out of bed earlier then I have no sympathy for them!

On the Saver to Melksham story I think that you should ask FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to put an easment on that ticket, like they do for west of England tickets, i.e. currently you can use a Saver on peak trains out of Paddington (except on the 1703) if you are travelling to stations West of Newton Abbot due to the longer journey times, however, Savers are banned out of Paddington between (I think) 1600 and 1930 for journeys as far as Exeter.

[grahame]

I can see both points of view here,

Yes and no .  I am talking of a differerent measurement which is an "intent to abuse the system by someone who should reasonably know better".   The problem is that I don't know how to make that measurement.

OK disgression is something that should allways be used, but would you walk out of Tesco with your shopping because there was a queue at the checkout and and if noone challenges you just steal it? because thats what these opportunist fare dodgers are basicly doing, and it does contribute to fare rises!

No, people don't walk out without paying. But people do just abandon their shopping carts in some supermarkets without paying (or taking the goods) at time - I know; I have spoken with a lot of people who work in shops.

What I have seen done, often, in supermarkets is for the folks runniing the tobacco kiosk to call people over to pay there, stepping past the normal queue. I guess in train terms that's the equivalent of putting your head into the booking hall, seeing a queue and announcing that folks can jump on the train and you'll sell them the cheap tickets rather than penalise them.  Is it something you do? Its not something I've seen done often ...

People are going to get more fraught with a train ticket queue.  A ten minute unexpected delay in a Tesco queue costs 10 minutes. A ten minute unexpected delay at 18:35 at Swindon travelling to the county town of Trowbridge will delay your arrival there by eighty six minutes - remember that it's a 35 minute journey on the 18:42 direct train (19:17 arrival) , but the next train with a connection is at 19:30, with 21 minutes more to wait in Bath for the train that arrives at 20:43 in Trowbridge.  Bit late for a 19:30 meeting at Bridge House.

To penalise someone who arrived at the station late may seem unfair but I don't think it is

And to penalise someone who arrives in good time not only seems unfair, but IS unfair.  The problem is that there's no easy way to tell them apart, and there is (demonstrably at times) an assumption that the passenger was late;  if it's the same people every day, then would you give the benefit of the doubt to someone who was new to you, but not to the regulars?

On the Saver to Melksham story I think that you should ask FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to put an easment on that ticket, like they do for west of England tickets, i.e. currently you can use a Saver on peak trains out of Paddington (except on the 1703) if you are travelling to stations West of Newton Abbot due to the longer journey times, however, Savers are banned out of Paddington between (I think) 1600 and 1930 for journeys as far as Exeter.

Easement requests for Melksham have been refused  within the last year on the basis that "others will take advantage".  When the popular 09:12 was killed last December, the return buy-at-time-of-travel ticket for a day trip to London if you didn't need to get to town too early rose overnight from under fifty pounds to double that, and it went up again in January to 105 pounds, or 126 including a London travelcard.   That has certainly  priced me off the train for direct travel, ... but that's yet another story.

The issue with the Saver was that Trainline sold it (and I checked, and it would have sold me that ticket FOR THAT TRAIN).  The departure boards at Paddington said NO SAVERs, so my customer asked a member of staff who told him it was not valid.  My customer queued up for (long time) at the ticket office to be told that his ticket WAS valid .... and a follow up to Customer Enquiries, as there were two "votes" each way, asked for full details of the journey which were already included in the follow up.  I sent the details again and asked if anything else was needed, but have not received a reply.

Really - I don't necessarily mind which was the answer goes now- I would just prefer a system where (at least) the staff, web sites, notice boards etc all understand the rules and can uniformly advise people. Which I guess brings us back to where we started!

[vacman]

I can see both points of view here,

Yes and no .  I am talking of a differerent measurement which is an "intent to abuse the system by someone who should reasonably know better".   The problem is that I don't know how to make that measurement.

OK disgression is something that should allways be used, but would you walk out of Tesco with your shopping because there was a queue at the checkout and and if noone challenges you just steal it? because thats what these opportunist fare dodgers are basicly doing, and it does contribute to fare rises!

No, people don't walk out without paying. But people do just abandon their shopping carts in some supermarkets without paying (or taking the goods) at time - I know; I have spoken with a lot of people who work in shops.

What I have seen done, often, in supermarkets is for the folks runniing the tobacco kiosk to call people over to pay there, stepping past the normal queue. I guess in train terms that's the equivalent of putting your head into the booking hall, seeing a queue and announcing that folks can jump on the train and you'll sell them the cheap tickets rather than penalise them.  Is it something you do? Its not something I've seen done often ...

People are going to get more fraught with a train ticket queue.  A ten minute unexpected delay in a Tesco queue costs 10 minutes. A ten minute unexpected delay at 18:35 at Swindon travelling to the county town of Trowbridge will delay your arrival there by eighty six minutes - remember that it's a 35 minute journey on the 18:42 direct train (19:17 arrival) , but the next train with a connection is at 19:30, with 21 minutes more to wait in Bath for the train that arrives at 20:43 in Trowbridge.  Bit late for a 19:30 meeting at Bridge House.

To penalise someone who arrived at the station late may seem unfair but I don't think it is

And to penalise someone who arrives in good time not only seems unfair, but IS unfair.  The problem is that there's no easy way to tell them apart, and there is (demonstrably at times) an assumption that the passenger was late;  if it's the same people every day, then would you give the benefit of the doubt to someone who was new to you, but not to the regulars?

On the Saver to Melksham story I think that you should ask FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to put an easment on that ticket, like they do for west of England tickets, i.e. currently you can use a Saver on peak trains out of Paddington (except on the 1703) if you are travelling to stations West of Newton Abbot due to the longer journey times, however, Savers are banned out of Paddington between (I think) 1600 and 1930 for journeys as far as Exeter.

Easement requests for Melksham have been refused  within the last year on the basis that "others will take advantage".  When the popular 09:12 was killed last December, the return buy-at-time-of-travel ticket for a day trip to London if you didn't need to get to town too early rose overnight from under fifty pounds to double that, and it went up again in January to 105 pounds, or 126 including a London travelcard.   That has certainly  priced me off the train for direct travel, ... but that's yet another story.

The issue with the Saver was that Trainline sold it (and I checked, and it would have sold me that ticket FOR THAT TRAIN).  The departure boards at Paddington said NO SAVERs, so my customer asked a member of staff who told him it was not valid.  My customer queued up for (long time) at the ticket office to be told that his ticket WAS valid .... and a follow up to Customer Enquiries, as there were two "votes" each way, asked for full details of the journey which were already included in the follow up.  I sent the details again and asked if anything else was needed, but have not received a reply.

Really - I don't necessarily mind which was the answer goes now- I would just prefer a system where (at least) the staff, web sites, notice boards etc all understand the rules and can uniformly advise people. Which I guess brings us back to where we started!

Mind you, there is a simple answer to it all, more barriered stations! On the subject of the tobbaco kiosk chipping in when it's busy, the equivelent on the railway is the Ticket Vending Machines (TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)) at stations, also, as mentioned by me somewhere FGW have "queue busters" at some stations who use Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) machines to sell todays tickets. I know the TVM's aren't popular with everyone but down this way more people use them than the ticket office!

[grahame]

Mind you, there is a simple answer to it all, more barriered stations!

On their own, they're not a solution.   But then, like most passengers, I tend to be on the trains and around stations at the same time as everyone else (i.e. when they're busy) so I see the problems of actually getting a ticket in a far higher proportion of cases that you would as a member of the operations team, who sees it at all times.  An understanddable system, an easy way for even the thickest of us to buy the tickets that we need when we need them (and in a form that work the barriers) and then, yes, they're an answer to unticketed travel.

[Mookiemoo]

And the other side..........

It was not FGW^▸ (First Great Western) but South west trains.......

I was attempting to get the train from Egham to Putney.

On arrival at egham, the normal station car park was full (as expected) so I went to the public pay and display.

A car had broken down at the entrance and I could not enter until it was moved.

The end result was I ran onto the platform just as the train was about to leave - I HAD to get that train as I had a meeting.

At putney I went stgraight to the excess fare window - I had no intention of not paying and had an inspector been on the train would have paid the fare happily.

I explained what had happened and why I had no ticket - ^20 penalty fare + my ticket.   

No exceptions.

that is WRONG.

I kinow some people chance their arms but genuine travellers suffer becuse of this.

Also - what is the problem with someone buying a ticket on the train? 

[vacman]

The reason Penalty fares were introduced (by BR^▸ (British Rail(ways))!!!) is for routes where stations are close together and thus on-train ticket checks are not possible, to allow people to purchase tickets on the train is asking for trouble as there is no incentive for people to pay for their journey and thus "try it on" and the railway looses money, fares go up even more and no money to invest!

Every penalty fare station has clear notices indicating what happens if you board without a ticket and if you choose to ignor them then there's only one person to blame if you get Penalty fared! It may seem harsh if people are running late etc but you can't have one rule for one and a different rule for another. Would you go into Tesco and run out with your shopping without paying for it because you didn't want to queue up because you were late??

[John R]

I'm not sure I agree with the last comments.

For example, on the morning services from Nailsea into Bristol (the High Speed services), the train managers almost always come down the train asking "Does anyone need to buy a ticket?" (And lots do of course, as the ticket buying facilities are totally inadequate, now the station is unstaffed.) Now this is on a service covered by penalty fares. So FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff are effectively accepting that it's OK to buy a ticket on the train. And if you don't you can always buy one at TM^‡(resolve), no questions asked.

So, what happens the first day FGW finally decide to impose the regime? In the words of the Kaiser Chiefs, I predict a riot.

[Timmer]

The way things are at the moment, I doubt any of the staff are upto the hassle of trying to enforce penalty fares and just want to give the best service possible to the travelling public knowing how fed up they are with the service provided by FGW^▸ (First Great Western). Afterall FGW are hardly in a position to be taking staff to task at the moment with the state the company is in.

[Mookiemoo]

The reason Penalty fares were introduced (by BR^▸ (British Rail(ways))!!!) is for routes where stations are close together and thus on-train ticket checks are not possible, to allow people to purchase tickets on the train is asking for trouble as there is no incentive for people to pay for their journey and thus "try it on" and the railway looses money, fares go up even more and no money to invest!

Every penalty fare station has clear notices indicating what happens if you board without a ticket and if you choose to ignor them then there's only one person to blame if you get Penalty fared! It may seem harsh if people are running late etc but you can't have one rule for one and a different rule for another. Would you go into Tesco and run out with your shopping without paying for it because you didn't want to queue up because you were late??

Yes you can.

Someone who walks straight to th excess fare window and declares they came from a penalty station but had a reason for no ticket is NOT TRYING TO EVADE PAYING

Someone who tries getting through thr barrier first - IS

Someone who invents their embarkation at an unmanned station - IS

When I declared I got on at egham - there were 4 unmanned stations between there and putney I could have boarded at -  but I was honest - and penalised for it

[Ollie]

I'm not sure I agree with the last comments.

For example, on the morning services from Nailsea into Bristol (the High Speed services), the train managers almost always come down the train asking "Does anyone need to buy a ticket?" (And lots do of course, as the ticket buying facilities are totally inadequate, now the station is unstaffed.) Now this is on a service covered by penalty fares. So FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff are effectively accepting that it's OK to buy a ticket on the train. And if you don't you can always buy one at TM^‡(resolve), no questions asked.

So, what happens the first day FGW finally decide to impose the regime? In the words of the Kaiser Chiefs, I predict a riot.

Seeing as you come from an unstaffed station it would be acceptable, but only if there were no ticket facilities at all.

Would always advise a Permit to Travel (where available) if you cannot buy a ticket in the normal way.

[John R]

There are ticket machines, but they are grossly inadequate in the morning peak, particularly as it takes much longer to do a simple cash transaction than the staffed office did. The train managers seem to accept this, but what happens when FGW^▸ (First Great Western) suddenly change their mind?

[Tim]

The problem with the current system is that you have different practices between staff and different policies between companies.  Why not just do what is done in most other countries and allow the sale of all tickets on the train but add a ^3 to ^5 "commission" to all on-train sales.  Make this consistant and nationwide.

The "commision" should be set a a level to discourage the opertunistic fare dodger but to be affordable to the genuine customer who can't buy a ticjet at the station because the queques are too long or because they are running late.  And don't call it a "penalty" because you make your genuine customers feel like criminals.