Oxford station - facilities, improvements, parking, incidents and events - merged posts

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

If the reason(s) are the same for the dates selected to replace said bridge - BMW holiday shutdown - going forward, then the next opportunity that isn't going to upset BMW too is.....Christmas/New Year holiday...

[ellendune]

Note what Network Rail said about "Kier and the 11 different utility providers involved". I can't imagine how there are as many as eleven, even if half of them are fibre operators, but I'm not surprised that coordinating them is difficult. It's probably more difficult than it should be.

You can imagine the meeting (live or Teams) which goes "we've found an old pipe that is is our way, so our work has to be changed and will take a bit longer" - "oh, that means we will have to replan our work,  and then schedule a new time (much later) to do that" - "ah, if we have to delay our work that means ..." etc. etc.

The time allowed looks long enough to an outsider, and given the constraints on booking rail closures NR^» (Network Rail - home page) must have allowed as long as they though it could possibly take plus a bit on top. I don't imagine NR, Kier, and these utilities companies are still all best friends.

Another mess caused by the blind ideological insistence on competition in the provision of public services to solve a problem created by privatisation.  

[Electric train]

Note what Network Rail said about "Kier and the 11 different utility providers involved". I can't imagine how there are as many as eleven, even if half of them are fibre operators, but I'm not surprised that coordinating them is difficult. It's probably more difficult than it should be.

You can imagine the meeting (live or Teams) which goes "we've found an old pipe that is is our way, so our work has to be changed and will take a bit longer" - "oh, that means we will have to replan our work,  and then schedule a new time (much later) to do that" - "ah, if we have to delay our work that means ..." etc. etc.

The time allowed looks long enough to an outsider, and given the constraints on booking rail closures NR^» (Network Rail - home page) must have allowed as long as they though it could possibly take plus a bit on top. I don't imagine NR, Kier, and these utilities companies are still all best friends.

Another mess caused by the blind ideological insistence on competition in the provision of public services to solve a problem created by privatisation.  

Are the pre Nationalisation public services pipes and cables exempt?  I suspect there are quite a few pipes and cables dating back before WW2, which may be abandoned and the ownership is unknown and proving they are abandoned and therefore safe to cut may be a challenge 

[ellendune]

Another mess caused by the blind ideological insistence on competition in the provision of public services to solve a problem created by privatisation.  

Are the pre Nationalisation public services pipes and cables exempt?  I suspect there are quite a few pipes and cables dating back before WW2, which may be abandoned and the ownership is unknown and proving they are abandoned and therefore safe to cut may be a challenge 

No but at least there were only 4 possible utility operators (Water Authority, Post office Telephones, Electricity Board, Gas Board) to deal with not 11!

[stuving]

Another mess caused by the blind ideological insistence on competition in the provision of public services to solve a problem created by privatisation.  

Are the pre Nationalisation public services pipes and cables exempt?  I suspect there are quite a few pipes and cables dating back before WW2, which may be abandoned and the ownership is unknown and proving they are abandoned and therefore safe to cut may be a challenge 

No but at least there were only 4 possible utility operators (Water Authority, Post office Telephones, Electricity Board, Gas Board) to deal with not 11!

Perhaps there are - and were - more than that, especially if you are doing PR^▸ (Public Relations) and playing "make the biggest number". If you list utilities as distinct network types, not by owner, you get: gas, electricity, water, foul sewers, road drains, cable TV (that standard location inherited by Virgin Media for fibre), telephone, and then fibre. Functionally, most of these may exist as a local distribution network and trunk connections too, which be operated separately.

But the fibres are unlikely to have been a problem. Last in and closest to the surface, they are easy to reroute on the timescales here. And I doubt they would be in the roadway under the bridge anyway, even long-distance ones.

[ChrisB]

Functionally, most of these may exist as a local distribution network and trunk connections too, which be operated separately.

But the fibres are unlikely to have been a problem. Last in and closest to the surface, they are easy to reroute on the timescales here. And I doubt they would be in the roadway under the bridge anyway, even long-distance ones.

There are at least 2 trunk fibre networks running under under that bridge as well as a trunk & local water main. The sewer is being rerouted away from the bridge, to pass under the tracks instead as they can't remove/replace it.

[ellendune]

Are the pre Nationalisation public services pipes and cables exempt?  I suspect there are quite a few pipes and cables dating back before WW2, which may be abandoned and the ownership is unknown and proving they are abandoned and therefore safe to cut may be a challenge 

No but at least there were only 4 possible utility operators (Water Authority, Post office Telephones, Electricity Board, Gas Board) to deal with not 11!

Perhaps there are - and were - more than that, especially if you are doing PR^▸ (Public Relations) and playing "make the biggest number". If you list utilities as distinct network types, not by owner, you get: gas, electricity, water, foul sewers, road drains, cable TV (that standard location inherited by Virgin Media for fibre), telephone, and then fibre. Functionally, most of these may exist as a local distribution network and trunk connections too, which be operated separately.

But the fibres are unlikely to have been a problem. Last in and closest to the surface, they are easy to reroute on the timescales here. And I doubt they would be in the roadway under the bridge anyway, even long-distance ones.

Both Sewers and Water Mains are Thames Water, Trunk and distribution mains are still with the same organisation so I would expect them to use the same contract.  Although Gas Distribution and Gas Transmission are separate I would be extremely surprised if there was a Gas Transmission Main there as there are only about 30 points where the transmission and Distribution networks join in the whole country.  Similarly for the electricity transmission network (though there are a few more interfaces). 

A long way back in this thread I did say that the best way would have been to drive a service tunnel under the railway and divert all the services through that.  If that looked too expensive then I doubt i it does now!

[eightonedee]

To add to the list of service companies/contacts-

1 - The sewerage and water supply divisions of Thames Water will be two different business units
2 - There will be highway drains (Oxfordshire County Council) as well
3 - In addition to any commercial fibre companies, it is likely that "JANET" (the Joint Academic Network) has a line through here.
4 - I think that I have read somewhere that there's also a culverted watercourse in the mix - step forward the Environment Agency
5 - Then there will also be the railway's own drains & services. I understand the lack (or loss) of these is one the many reasons for the problems and delays with the GW^▸ (Great Western) Mainline electrification.

BTW^▸ (by the way) - I believe that moving fibre cables may not be simple or straightforward either.

I do though agree that combined services cable ducting would be a good idea. It's just that we are about 200 years too late now!

[ellendune]

To add to the list of service companies/contacts-

1 - The sewerage and water supply divisions of Thames Water will be two different business units
2 - There will be highway drains (Oxfordshire County Council) as well
3 - In addition to any commercial fibre companies, it is likely that "JANET" (the Joint Academic Network) has a line through here.
4 - I think that I have read somewhere that there's also a culverted watercourse in the mix - step forward the Environment Agency
5 - Then there will also be the railway's own drains & services. I understand the lack (or loss) of these is one the many reasons for the problems and delays with the GW^▸ (Great Western) Mainline electrification.

BTW^▸ (by the way) - I believe that moving fibre cables may not be simple or straightforward either.

I do though agree that combined services cable ducting would be a good idea. It's just that we are about 200 years too late now!

For sewerage at least the water company are likely to let the main contractor do the work. 

Common service ducts are quite normal in Germany. 

[stuving]

I do though agree that combined services cable ducting would be a good idea. It's just that we are about 200 years too late now!

You didn't mean this, did you:

Fibre in water

March 2022 - We’re doing our research

Our plan is to put the fibre cables into ‘messenger pipes’, which are made from the same material as our new water pipes. The messenger pipes will protect the fibre cables and make sure they don’t touch the water.

But first things first, we need to make sure this is safe for customers. We’ll look into any possible risks and will iron out any potential problems with the design, technology or processes.
 
What’s next?

If the project passes the initial research phase, 17km of fibre-optic cables will be laid in our water pipes between Barnsley and Penistone in 2023. This will be the first time a project like this has been trialled in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom)!

That was done by Yorkshire Water; or rather it wasn't - the study report came out a year late, and while it tried to sound positive the trial won't happen.

Combining two industries meant there was a lack of clarity when it came to industry approved standards which meant certification became a challenge. An important aspect of using the clean water network is that anything installed within the network first needs Regulation 31 (Reg 31) approval from the DWI. For this project, approvals were needed for the installation method and the finished installed product. At the time of writing, almost 2 years after the TAWCO project was awarded funding, approval for the finished product remains outstanding and subsequently there is a barrier to adoption until this issue is resolved.

In addition to the enabling technology, alignment of the operational processes of two very disparate industries – from design and construction to ownership and operation, including ‘break-fix’ – presented a significant challenge. TAWCO successfully defined aligned processes and as such has created

OK, it was a silly idea, but failing to even spend £5M on an initial trial sounds all to familiar. Fibre in sewer, of course, is a much older technique - you're just supposed to ask first!

[eightonedee]

No. I was referring to the practice of having a continuous reinforced trench laid, mostly in the margin of a road, often under or alongside the footway. This is now quite usual in new developments,  especially larger scale ones.

It's the same idea as practiced in Germany as referred to by Ellendune.

[didcotdean]

Network Rail say they 'need more time' before it can say when Botley Road will be reopened as "a review" is now being carried out.

"The review will look at what has been achieved so far, what remains to be done, plus the timescales and budget required. It will also consider options for rescheduling the replacement of Botley Road bridge.

"This is an incredibly complex project, involving multiple organisations, so although we know everyone wants clarity, we are taking the time to get it right.”

(Source: Oxford Mail)

[nickswift99]

Oxford Mail https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/24504486.oxford-politician-said-botley-road-shut-end-2025/ now reporting that a local councillor has stated that the Botley Road is unlikely to be open until the end of 2025. No official announcement from Network Rail, but I do feel sorry for the residents of Oxford.

[grahame]

Oxford Mail https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/24504486.oxford-politician-said-botley-road-shut-end-2025/ now reporting that a local councillor has stated that the Botley Road is unlikely to be open until the end of 2025. No official announcement from Network Rail, but I do feel sorry for the residents of Oxford.

Businesses too ...  from This is Oxfordshire

Amanda Suliman-Bell, who runs Rainbow & Spoon cafe, complained that footfall had fallen by 90 per cent since the diversion, which guides pedestrians away from the south side of the square.

Earlier this month Mrs Suliman-Bell said she feared she would have to shut the store if the original walkway was not restored in the near future.

She emailed Network Rail and contractors Kier urging them to restore the original pedestrian walkway as soon as possible.

She said in her email: "I have lost 90 per cent of my footfall since you changed the walkway over on July 1 - with absolutely no warning, no announcement, no hint and zero thought as to how it might impact those businesses on the south side of Frideswide Square - indeed the only side of the square where there are businesses."

[ChrisB]

And Network Rail has said that they will reinstate the south-side footway for at least the 5 weeks prior to Xmas.