Train delay means I miss appointment - can I claim refund???

[whole diary]

[Glovidge]

Possibly callus but realistic.  Suicide is the cowards way out and it may make them think twice or at least choose a means that does not inconvenience thousands of others in the process.

I'm sure just before a suicidal person is about to jump off a bridge in front of a train they're thinking about the possible compensatory repurcussions on their estate!?!? Or if such a measure were to be introduced that would ensure they wouldn't do it!!!






[/quote]

[devon_metro]

Two suicides affecting two busy mainlines on Saturday lunchtime. That's not good! (second being Ealing Bway)

[John R]

Hmm.  The closing of the motorway while the emergency services scrape body parts off the concrete doesn't involve any inconvenience to anyone?  I'm not convinced - I'd sue their estate, in such a case.

Or for the six hours whilst they are debating whether to jump from the Avonmouth Bridge. Think of the misery (and in many cases financial loss where people missed planes or ferries as a result) that caused many thousands of people.

[Ollie]

Japan appears to have been known to send a bill to the family in the event of suicides:
Link: http://joi.ito.com/weblog/2002/08/18/paying-for-suic.html

"Trains don't usually stop too long after a suicide, there's rarely much damage to carriages and we rarely have to send anyone off to catch trains on different lines. In that regard, train suicides probably don't cost too much," says an employee of a commuter line. "But to make sure we can cover the costs incurred when a suicide leads to a derailment, we have to ask the bereaved families of suicide victims to compensate us. The costs are usually in the range of 100 million yen, but I've heard of a case where a family was billed 140 million yen after someone killed themselves by jumping in front of a train."

"As soon as the news hits that someone's committed suicide in one of our apartments, rents have to drop by about half or we can't get anyone else to live there," laments a Tokyo real estate agent. "In one case a few years ago, an agent sued the father of a man who slaughtered his girlfriend then killed himself in one of the agent's apartments. The agent won the case and the father ended up having to fork out a few million yen."

"We can get a room back into shape in a couple of days (after a suicide), at a cost of only a few million yen in even the worst cases," says a hotel employee. "We don't usually charge renovation costs, but if the suicide is of a famous person and the hotel's reputation is damaged, the hotel'll sue the bereaved family for whatever they're worth."

[Tim]

Leaving aside the issue of whether the victim's estate should compensate (and on to a less contravertial subject I hope) , I think that the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) should pay compensation to passengers regardless of the cause of delay. 

I dislike their being able to wriggle out of payment due to "circumstances beyond the control of the railway" whether that be suicide or extreme weather or a passenger assaulting on-train staff.

Whilst it is true that the railway doesn't have complete control over these causes of delay it does have some control (witness NR^» (Network Rail - home page)'s plan to cut suicides by 10% or whatever it was, or action by some TOCs to reduce the number of staff-assults) and it does have some control over the length of the incident (ie how fast the clear-up is).

The TOCs are profit-making companies and therefore respond to financial incentives.  It would be good to further incentivise the rail industry to reduce the number of suicides and their impact, to be better prepared for extreme weather and to take stronger action against the scrotes who abuse staff would it not?

As for the cry "it wouldn't be fair on the TOCs".  It would be if they knew before their franchise bid and factored it in accordingly.

[JayMac]

Some nice ideas Tim, and we are already headed there in respect of delay refunds for any cause. All recent franchise changes have seen the introduction of "Delay/Repay" schemes, and all other franchises will migrate to the scheme when they are up for re-tendering. Delay/Repay offers compensation whatever the cause.

So with FGW^▸ (First Great Western), we have to wait until 2016 before we get delay compensation for any cause.

Incentivising the rail industry to reduce the incidences of "circumstances beyond the control of the railway" may work, and Delay/Repay goes some way towards that incentive. However if too much emphasis on preventing "circumstances beyond the control of the railway" is put in to future franchise specifications, TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) will recover the costs involved in the only way they can - through the fare-box.

[ChrisB]

Two suicides affecting two busy mainlines on Saturday lunchtime. That's not good! (second being Ealing Bway)

Don't I know it - I was on the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) ditrectly behind the one at Ealing Broadway....I really don't need to spend that long at Slough.....

But please consider that those committing suicide have mental health issues at that time - no one in their right mind would throw themselves under a train, would they?....and you can't legislate against illness.

Try somer compassion instead - especially if it were your relative - Mum, Dad, brother, sister - would you still think that way? I'm not sure I really want to know you if you do still think that....

[super tm]

So with FGW^▸ (First Great Western), we have to wait until 2016 before we get delay compensation for any cause.

I think current franchise will end in 2013.  There is a three year extension available but i dont know what the criteria are for that to come into effect.

[thetrout]

Ok... Here's my two pence worth

Person A - Highflying Career - Owns Large Estate
Person B - Homeless - No Fixed Abode

So if person A commits suicide and inconviences others, your saying that there estate should be taken up by the railways as compensation. Now if Person B commits suicide and has no assests... who should pay then???

Why should the family of Person A have no entitlement over an estate whereas there is little that can be claimed off of someone who has no assests whatsoever.

I don't see how that could ever be realistic... I'm not saying I agree, nor disagree... But I am just thinking what is right for the family of the deceased as losing a loved one is hard enough surely...?!

[Timmer]

I think current franchise will end in 2013.  There is a three year extension available but i dont know what the criteria are for that to come into effect.

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) may not want it after 2013 as thats when the largest premiums are payed. I would suspect a new much longer franchise would be offered that would supersede the current one that would be too good an opportunity to miss for First to put a good bid in.

[Super Guard]

I think current franchise will end in 2013.  There is a three year extension available but i dont know what the criteria are for that to come into effect.

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) may not want it after 2013 as thats when the largest premiums are payed. I would suspect a new much longer franchise would be offered that would supersede the current one that would be too good an opportunity to miss for First to put a good bid in.

That is true Timmer, however if FirstGroup say no to the extension to wriggle out of the premiums, I would have thought the Government would be as willing to give them a new franchise as much as they would NX!

[John R]

Though they would be running out of alternatives if First and NatEx were both discounted. Remember you need a decent competition to get the best price.

It would be a rather different position though, as FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would be perfectly entitled to decline the offer, and chance their luck in a new round of bidding. Not the same as a default at all.

Only three years to go. On the initial term the franchise has passed its half way mark. Wonder whether Melksham will see an improved service before the end date. Who knows, we could end up with the Stagecoach Coffee Shop.

     

[ChrisB]

It would be a rather different position though, as FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would be perfectly entitled to decline the offer, and chance their luck in a new round of bidding. Not the same as a default at all.

You are correct - I believe the 2013 break date is possible on either side...

[paul7575]

Who knows, we could end up with the Stagecoach Coffee Shop.

Precedent would suggest Great Western Trains.  'Stagecoach' isn't used as part of the trading name in the rail franchises...

Paul

[Tim]

Though they would be running out of alternatives if First and NatEx were both discounted. Remember you need a decent competition to get the best price.

i wouldn't discount new entrants (or joint ventures involing foreign railways).