Pre-series Super Express Trains cancelled and delay to IEP Programme?

[woody]

From another forum,"An interesting answer from the Minister, Chris Mole on 28 January
2010. It looks as if the pre-series IEP has been cancelled".

'Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport
what estimate his Department has made of the financial savings that
would result from cancelling (a) the East Coast pilot fleet of the
Inter-city Express Programme and (b) the Inter-city Express Programme
East Coast depot. [314076]

Chris Mole: The 'pilot fleet' or Pre-Series Trains concept no longer
applies.

[paul7755]

Roger Ford's Informed Sources preview out today now has the first batch of IEP described as 'Package 0', and it seems to be for '1 for 1' replacement of the ECML HST fleet, with full length bi-modes. 

The original 'pre series' idea provided for a selection of different train lengths and modes.

There is then package 1, ECML 180 DMU and Cambridge/Kings Lynn 365 replacement.

Packages 2,3 and 4 then cover the GWML and its electrification.

Apparently there are further changes to the design to be discussed in forthcoming articles, presumably these will provide the detail on stuff like the 2nd transformer in the full bi-modes, which has been mentioned recently.

Not really relevant to this area, but he is suggesting that the cancelled order is the remaining Pendolino lengthening, which is only an option.

Paul

[IndustryInsider]

Let's hope that all this untried technology works pretty well out of the box then!  At least the users of the WCML won't be the first route to have to iron out any teething problems on.

[paul7755]

I'm not sure how much really will be untried technology. Apart from the diesel generator, surely nearly eveything else on the train can be found on the 395s ruunning on HS1, or on other Japanese trains?  Intercity style doors on the corners are the main visible detail not present on the 395s - hardly cutting edge technology?

Paul

[Timmer]

Not really relevant to this area, but he is suggesting that the cancelled order is the remaining Pendolino lengthening, which is only an option.

Well that is really short sighted IMHO if that is the case. The production line is open so why not invest in future capacity and finish the job by lengthening the entire fleet. To do it later would be a huge cost and therefore unviable.

[IndustryInsider]

I'm not sure how much really will be untried technology. Apart from the diesel generator, surely nearly eveything else on the train can be found on the 395s ruunning on HS1, or on other Japanese trains?  Intercity style doors on the corners are the main visible detail not present on the 395s - hardly cutting edge technology?

It's more about the reliability of the diesel engine on the bi-mode trains - only one engine needs great reliability. With HST's you can struggle on with one engine most of the time and Adelantes/Voyagers (and to a lesser extent Turbos/150/158's etc.) regularly suffer engine failures which aren't really noticeable due to the other engines on the train.

Also, the on train systems will need to be able to adapt with being powered from the wires one minute and the diesel generator the next - pretty much unproven on a high speed train as far as I know?

We'll see - hopefully the temptation to over-engineer the train (as with the Adelante) will be resisted, but with these trains being unique in some areas, to expect them to work out of the box might be asking a little too much?

[willc]

Looks like DafT has finally noticed what a monster they have created, though apparently the delay is all the fault of the financial markets

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8538222.stm

Lord Adonis's statement

http://www.dft.gov.uk/press/speechesstatements/statements/adonis20100226

Nice high-powered, reliable, work-out-of-the-box German electric locomotives and new hauled coaches anyone?

[inspector_blakey]

It's a nice idea but I reckon they'd get some unplanned re-gauging the first time they encountered one of our bridges or tunnels...

[devon_metro]

Lets just order some trains similar to 395s, and get the knitting up. Job done.

[smithy]

Lets just order some trains similar to 395s, and get the knitting up. Job done.

while they are at it reinstate the order for 172's plus add on some more to improve capacity and enable older rubbish like pacers and 153's to be scrapped (talking great western region here)

[devon_metro]

Far too sensible, we'd be better spending £x billion on consultations about possible train designs with as much exotic equipment as possible. 

[willc]

Lets just order some trains similar to 395s,

I hope that what is basically a souped-up Japanese suburban emu isn't the future of intercity rail travel in the UK. Even extending the life of HSTs yet again has got to be better than that.

It's a nice idea but I reckon they'd get some unplanned re-gauging the first time they encountered one of our bridges or tunnels...

Both Bombardier and Siemens have indicated they would have no trouble shrinking down their current standard European electric loco designs into UK loading gauge bodies if it was worth their while to do so. Eurostar is of course a shrunken TGV, Virgin Pendolinos are a shrunken version of the Italian original, and the body of an SET coach was planned to be almost as big as those of the tilting versions (diesel and electric) of German ICE trains. Give someone a big enough order and they'll do what's needed to squeeze under British bridges.

IF DafT hadn't taken what began life as an HST replacement programme and tried to solve just about every rolling stock issue going, from replacing outer-suburban London commuter trains to the HST and Class 91s, come up with frankly bizarre stuff like fitting diesel shunting engines into express electric trains and defying the laws of physics when it came to the supposed performance of the bi-mode version running on diesel power, then we would probably have ordered some new trains, based on proven technology, several years ago, with the prospect of some of them entering service in the near future, rather than the UK taxpayer and assorted trainbuilders wasting time and countless millions of pounds, euros and yen on the railway equivalent of reinventing the wheel.

[Timmer]

All this delay because of one man waiting when its best for him to call a general election. I don't want to go off topic but if there is one thing the Americans have got so right is fixed terms between elections. This country needs to have an election so whoever forms the next government can get on with this and many other issues that need sorting that are kicked into the long grass until it suits Gordon to give us our say.

[IndustryInsider]

Eurostar is of course a shrunken TGV

There's an interesting documentary doing the rounds one on of the channels on Sky about the KTX (Korean Express Train), the first build of trains for their new HS line, opened in in 2004, was basically an enlarged TGV (picture of one of the beasts here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/KTX.jpg ).  Though a forward thinking country like Korea already has a newer model already on the tracks and a third generation 400kph+ model making its début in the near future.  Their initial line from Seoul to Busan is about 200 miles in length, so not too dissimilar to a line from London to Manchester and on to Leeds that the Tories have been pushing, and has been built on very challenging terrain.

come up with frankly bizarre stuff like fitting diesel shunting engines into express electric trains

I actually thought that was quite a sensible idea as it would provide enough power to get the train to the nearest station in the event of overhead power failure, or off of the main line in the event of a power connected train failure, or to be able to move itself within the confines of a non-electrified depot or sidings.

[Donkey Guard]

All this delay because of one man waiting when its best for him to call a general election. I don't want to go off topic but if there is one thing the Americans have got so right is fixed terms between elections. This country needs to have an election so whoever forms the next government can get on with this and many other issues that need sorting that are kicked into the long grass until it suits Gordon to give us our say.

While I am no Labour voter, and have no time for that fool we currently have "leading us", it was pretty obvious that after he bottled calling an election after Blair left, and his continued unpopular rating, it was never going to be anything but a 5-year term.  The same applied of course to John Major in 1997.

Having said that, I do agree with you re: fixed terms, and perhaps a mandatory election if there is a change to the party-leader.

It is a shame, that the only positive thing I have to say about Labour in the last 13 years is Lord Adonis, but there is no guarantee he wouldn't be "moved" in the cabinet if Labour won.