Another Fatality Massive Delays 11/2/2010

[whole diary]

[Mookiemoo]

You see thats where I differ - would not bother me the slightest to see the dead body - once its dead its just a pile of bones and flesh

But I have been around medics and paramedics much of my life since I was about 10 (my famioy and friends seem to be connected to the medical profession in one way or another) - which is why I also have a very black sense of humour.

Yes, someone died - I feel for her family but there is no reason to be traumatised by seeing a cadaver

[Electric train]

Yes, someone died - I feel for her family but there is no reason to be traumatised by seeing a cadaver

But the cadaver on the railway is an unexplained death until such time as the Police have gathered sufficient evidence it remains unexplained as such is a crime scene.  It is easy to say why can not trains pass while the recovery is being done, the civil Police, Fire and Ambulance staff would not be allowed to work on an open operational railway due to 'elf n safety rules of their employers.

I agree with genghisthecat if we do not treat the mortal remains of a fellow human being with respect we are not better than wild animals, we also have to allow for the feelings and emotions of the staff its not only the driver of the train it can also affect the signaler who is likely to be the first person the driver contacts.  Rail is not the only transport system brought to a stand when there is a death think of motorways when there has been a fatal RTA I have been parked for 2 or more hours waiting for it to be cleared.

[Mookiemoo]

Yes, someone died - I feel for her family but there is no reason to be traumatised by seeing a cadaver

But the cadaver on the railway is an unexplained death until such time as the Police have gathered sufficient evidence it remains unexplained as such is a crime scene.  It is easy to say why can not trains pass while the recovery is being done, the civil Police, Fire and Ambulance staff would not be allowed to work on an open operational railway due to 'elf n safety rules of their employers.

I agree with genghisthecat if we do not treat the mortal remains of a fellow human being with respect we are not better than wild animals, we also have to allow for the feelings and emotions of the staff its not only the driver of the train it can also affect the signaler who is likely to be the first person the driver contacts.  Rail is not the only transport system brought to a stand when there is a death think of motorways when there has been a fatal RTA I have been parked for 2 or more hours waiting for it to be cleared.

Actuyally I dont treat the mortal remains of a human because they are not their mortal remains - the human in question ceases to exist the minute the last electron in their brain died.  I never saw my father after he died because to me that was not him - it was just a pile of meat and bones.  My dad is the person I remember.

I know everyone is not like this but I have no time for the hand wringing over attachment to a pile of meat and bones.  I have seen a dead bodies not long after their death (was invlved in a fatal car crash - I was not the offending party I hasten to add) -17, 18 and 10 - the ten year old was the younger sibling.  Whilst I had sympathy for their families and the loss of life - seeing the dead bodies at the scene is no different than looking at a dead roadkill.

And I'm sorry - I do get aggrieved when I get home two hours late - or given my schedule have to fork out for a blinking hotel - because they shut the lines for two  hours.  I did just look and in the last five years I have lost in total about ^2000 because of fatalities closing the line - be it in hotel bills or me taking a day off the next day because I was already in transit when it happened and I had no choice but to continue on.

See the scene, tent it off if need be then get the bloody trains running again sharpish.

[IndustryInsider]

There were children in the carriage ahead of ours (who blessedly seemed unaware of what had happened) but I don^t think there should ever be the risk of them seeing what I saw. I^m finding it pretty hard to come to terms with myself. It didn^t look to me as though the woman had been hit by a train directly, in which case it^s hard to see how it could have happened.

Had she been hit by a train then the scene would probably have been much more upsetting. 

I'm sure we're all impressed with FallenAngel's hard-line approach, but I don't think anybody should ever be purposefully exposed to such a scene, especially young children who might be on the train.  I've seen a fair few dead bodies in my time too, but those that have been run over by trains are often in a much more shocking state than your average RTA or other death.

I'm all for trying to speed up the resolution to these incidents, but, at the very least, body parts should be covered up fully or removed from the scene before trains are allowed to pass by on adjacent tracks - surely we all agree on that?

[Mookiemoo]

There were children in the carriage ahead of ours (who blessedly seemed unaware of what had happened) but I don^t think there should ever be the risk of them seeing what I saw. I^m finding it pretty hard to come to terms with myself. It didn^t look to me as though the woman had been hit by a train directly, in which case it^s hard to see how it could have happened.

but I don't think anybody should ever be purposefully exposed to such a scene, especially young children who might be on the train. 

No I dont agree.

Firstly - on adjacent tracks, unless the train comes to a halt right next to the body - no one is really going to see it!  Maybe the driver will know why he's halted unusually but hey - that the cycnical argument posted above.  And if the driver knows what he's passing - why is he looking at the next track and not on the track he's on driving his train.

As to the young children issue - I remember when I was about 13 my mother arguing with the mother of a friend of mine.  The crux was "if children are as innocent as you think they are, they won't understand and if they arent' then its nothing new". 

Also - there is an argument (I'll look up references if people insists) that the western obsession with keeping children away from wakes and funerals and seeing a dead body actually causes more emotional problems later on. Coming from irish stock, we had wakes where the dead body was propped uo in the corner in the coffin and everyone offered a drink to them..............There are only two things in life that are certain, death and taxes.  We teach children fiscal responsibility but god forbid they see a dead body

Edit - ok - I also was working in a factory at 19 whilst at uni and some numb nut lost their arm - which I ended up holding.  Felt like a baseball bat with the weighting at teh shoulder end!

[IndustryInsider]

Well, fortunately, I think you're very much in the minority there.

Trains will always pass such a scene at caution, people who are not qualified in track safety are going to be on the track. If you see ambulances, police and lots of other people in high vis clothing then your attention will naturally be drawn to them and what they're doing - if they happen to be standing next to an uncovered body on the track with limbs missing, a partially dismembered head with half the skin on the face ripped off revealing the skull beneath and all manner of other things straight out of a horror movie, then that's a little different to seeing a body at a wake all respectfully prepared.  Ask a few mothers and see what they would think to the railway industry not taking steps to avoid that scenario happening!

Sorry to give such a graphic description, but that is what a lot of railway suicides look like.

[Mookiemoo]

Well, fortunately, I think you're very much in the minority there.

Trains will always pass such a scene at caution, people who are not qualified in track safety are going to be on the track. If you see ambulances, police and lots of other people in high vis clothing then your attention will naturally be drawn to them and what they're doing - if they happen to be standing next to an uncovered body on the track with limbs missing, a partially dismembered head with half the skin on the face ripped off revealing the skull beneath and all manner of other things straight out of a horror movie, then that's a little different to seeing a body at a wake all respectfully prepared.  Ask a few mothers and see what they would think to the railway industry not taking steps to avoid that scenario happening!

Sorry to give such a graphic description, but that is what a lot of railway suicides look like.

I can honestly say - it wouldnt bother me - its just meat and bones.    I am not a mother but I know what my mother would have thought - oh well, she'll get used to it.

As I said - I have held a dismembered arm and actually thought it felt like a baseball bat!

There is no reason a shield of sorts could not be put up to hide the body from passing trains - either a tent or a beach screen thing that people use.  Think out of the box.  IF that is really the issue.

So , you might get a train proceeding at caution past a screen  - so everyone knows there is a dead body behind it - is that really such an issue?

[Electric train]

Well, fortunately, I think you're very much in the minority there.

Trains will always pass such a scene at caution, people who are not qualified in track safety are going to be on the track. If you see ambulances, police and lots of other people in high vis clothing then your attention will naturally be drawn to them and what they're doing - if they happen to be standing next to an uncovered body on the track with limbs missing, a partially dismembered head with half the skin on the face ripped off revealing the skull beneath and all manner of other things straight out of a horror movie, then that's a little different to seeing a body at a wake all respectfully prepared.  Ask a few mothers and see what they would think to the railway industry not taking steps to avoid that scenario happening!

Sorry to give such a graphic description, but that is what a lot of railway suicides look like.

I can honestly say - it wouldnt bother me - its just meat and bones.    I am not a mother but I know what my mother would have thought - oh well, she'll get used to it.

As I said - I have held a dismembered arm and actually thought it felt like a baseball bat!

There is no reason a shield of sorts could not be put up to hide the body from passing trains - either a tent or a beach screen thing that people use.  Think out of the box.  IF that is really the issue.

So , you might get a train proceeding at caution past a screen  - so everyone knows there is a dead body behind it - is that really such an issue?

Quite simply the Law requires the Police to investigate, the Police will NOT allow their employees to work unnecessarily in a dangerous environment.  One major danger on the railways can be removed by stopping trains, for anyone who has stood on the track with trains passing even at 30 mph it is unnerving unless you are used to it, there are also so many other hazard, uneven ground, slipper sleepers, cable, catch pits, loose ballast, even the rails are just the right hight to trip you up and is some areas live conductors just inches above the ground that can kill.  Even as someone who is seasoned and experience d at working on the track I only go on or about the line when trains are running as little as possible not because of the trains but because of the under foot hazards

[IndustryInsider]

There is no reason a shield of sorts could not be put up to hide the body from passing trains - either a tent or a beach screen thing that people use.  Think out of the box.  IF that is really the issue.

So , you might get a train proceeding at caution past a screen  - so everyone knows there is a dead body behind it - is that really such an issue?

I think that really is the issue, yes.  And I'd have thought that was fairly obviously along the lines of what I meant - no 'thinking out of the box' required.    Stop all trains until someone is on site.  If there's room to run trains past the body or parts of body, then cover them as soon as possible from the view of passing trains and allow them to pass by whilst the scene is assessed, briefly re-close the line when the remains are ready to be removed from the site and then get normal working resumed as quickly as possible.  Such screening equipment should be installed in all MOM^▸ (Mobile Operations Manager)'s cars (they're the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) guys that are first on scene), if it isn't already.

It doesn't necessarily stop the civil police riding roughshod over the whole operation and demanding this and that, and there will still be quite significant delays due to the procedural steps that have to be taken - informing those on site that trains will be running and on what tracks, etc., but even a 25% reduction in delays per suicide would be of significant benefit.  But as 'electric train' and others have said, these decisions are not always down to Network Rail!

I remain totally convinced that a driver of a train should not have to witness such a scene as there is the potential that it would play on their mind for the rest of the shift and lead to mistakes due to a lack of concentration.  Drivers don't just blindly stare at the track they are driving on - a wider appreciation of what is happening around them is needed - if there's people by the trackside they will be looking at them to make sure they stay a safe distance away for example.

[BBM]

It doesn't necessarily stop the civil police riding roughshod over the whole operation and demanding this and that

Thank You Insider for an excellent post. My issue is not with the procedures immediately after the incident, it's important that the correct level of care and compassion is undertaken. My problem is with the delays subsequent to that whilst the police, etc, seem to be throwing their weight around with no regard for the further disruption they're creating.

Last year during the summer/early autumn my elderly Mum was ill at home. She was able to get limited social services care during the daytime but nothing in the evening when I was her sole carer. I was very anxious to be home from work by 6pm but fortunately (and to FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s great credit) I was never ever late home during that period of time.

About one week after she sadly passed away in mid-October, there was a fatality in the Slough area at about 16:30 and I remember looking at the FGW site about severe disruptions from Paddington with suspension of service during the evening peak. If I'd been travelling that day I wouldn't have been home until well after 7pm and as my Mum was too ill to answer the phone she would have been sitting very anxious and hungry in the dark. This is why I feel so strongly about minimising disruptions in these circumstances, it's nothing to do with getting to meetings at work or nights at the theatre, etc. It's where there could be genuinely serious disruptions to people's lives.

[eightf48544]

Welcome to the forum Genghisthecat. I am sorry you and your fellow passengers had to go through your ordeal. As the instigator of the thread who watched it it unfold from Taplow station, may I make a couple of points.

I think it was probably wrong of your driver to stop where the train was alongside the body. You don't say which direction you were travelling but he could have stopped further down the line and radioed from there.

I also note you were under way in 20 minutes. I was mainly commenting on passengers on other trains which were delayed up 2 hours and the many hundreds thereafter inconvenienced until the service got back to normal.

Also while relating it to this incident I was making the general point that the handling of bodies on the line these days does seem to take a long time. I compare it to my time on the railways in the 60s when it was usually less than an hour, Clapham Junction at 4pm was a favourite. If you read other posts on this board, particulary the one on the two fatalities at Ealing the previous week  also highlighted the problem.

I detect a possible  concensus that whilst it essential to ascertain the circumstances of the death there is then  probably no reasion why the body can't be then be covered over and trains allowed to proceed past the site until a convinient time can arranged to remove the body. Particularly on 4 track lines such as at Burnham where two lines could be reopened fairly quickly.

[Tim]

I have some sympathy with your view FA, but I think that you have to be respectful of other people's views on this (it is unreasonable to expect every driver and passenger to have the same view of bodies as you do).  The rule book seems pretty sensible to me - essentially it is saying keep the trains moving if the body is not blocking the line, but make some effort to cover the body before doing that and be sensitive to driver's own feeling rather than forcing them to drive.  Not an unreasonable set of rules or unduly squeemish.  The only thing that they do that I am not totally in agreement with is the closing of four lines when only one (perhaps an outside one) is effected.  Is it really too much of a risk to ask, properly escorted fire/ambulance/police staff to work within 10 feet of trains crawling past at 2 mph? (surely far greater risks are taken by ambulance staff at roadsides)

personally, I have never seen a railway suicide, but I consider myself matter-of-fact about these things.  I have done medical reaserch involving cutting cartilage samples from (dead) human knees and don't hold any religeous/supersituous views of any sort.

However, I did glance out of a tower block window once onto a flat roof 6 feet below to see a body of someone who had jumped from 20 stories further up.  They were partly covered by an ambulance blanket and had a blood transfusion pack (tubes, bags, needles etc) sticking out of their arm where an ambulance crew had tried to save them.  They had not been saved and were left alone on the roof for the recovery crew (fire brigade) to arrive with a ladder.  It took me a while to figure out what I was looking at - the legs and arms stuck out of the blanket looked like a shop dummy.  The sight was not upsetting or yuck-making, but it was unsettling and I have never forgotten it.  It was especially unsettling cos the victim was a young woman of about my age.  I know that the body was just meat, but the fact that it had recently been a person did register with me (as did the fact that she was too young to die and the fact that a paramedic had obviously tried and failed to save her). 

[Phil]

Unfortunately it seems there's been at least 20 fatalities today over in Belgium. My heart goes out to everyone involved, either directly or indirectly.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1251139/At-20-dead-Eurostar-halted-trains-collide-Brussels.html?ITO=1490

Update: make that 25, and Eurostar services cancelled as well.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1251139/Brussels-train-crash-leaves-25-dead-halts-Eurostar.html?ITO=1490

Further update: apparently it was "bound to happen sometime" (hmm....)

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/59737,news-comment,news-politics,brussels-train-crash-was-inevitable-on-busy-belgium-railway-network-buizingen

[moonrakerz]

Yes, someone died - I feel for her family but there is no reason to be traumatised by seeing a cadaver

But the cadaver on the railway is an unexplained death until such time as the Police have gathered sufficient evidence it remains unexplained as such is a crime scene................ Rail is not the only transport system brought to a stand when there is a death think of motorways when there has been a fatal RTA I have been parked for 2 or more hours waiting for it to be cleared.

But why ?  Even the most minor of road accidents now attracts more police cars than an open jar of marmalade would get wasps in midsummer. It appears to be getting that way on the Railways now. "Unexplained death" on the railway:-  almost certainly accident (for whatever reason) or suicide: neither are a crime as far as I know. If I was out to kill someone I would find an easier way than using a passing train !

I read yesterday that the tragic incident of a car going into the River Avon where a young girl died was exacerbated because the police were NOT ALLOWED to try and access the vehicle in the river - under their safety rules. It took over an hour and a half for a diving team to arrive from the next county ! I fear the same mentality applies now to the railways.

I read earlier in this thread than human remains are a "bio hazard" - why wasn't the dead badger I saw at the roadside yesterday cordoned off and the road closed ? - badgers carry fleas and almost certainly TB as well - which most humans don't.

Rules, damned rules & b****y rules ! or just plain old-fashioned stupidity ?

I really must agree with FA, although perhaps not quite as bluntly !

[Tim]

[quote author=moonrakerz link=topic=6242.msg61739#msg61739 I read earlier in this thread than human remains are a "bio hazard" - why wasn't the dead badger I saw at the roadside yesterday cordoned off and the road closed ? - badgers carry fleas and almost certainly TB as well - which most humans don't.

[/quote]

I can answer that as a biologist.  True there are some diseases that can infect both humans and other animals, but you would be very unlikley to catch most of them from a dead animal.  Live animals are a low risk and dead animals even lower.  Whether it is TB or swineflu, a live animal sneezing on you is a slight risk, shovelling roadkill into a bag is not. 

Humans are different in that their blood can contain many pathogens that can infect other people.  HIV and Hepatitis are the main ones people worry about neither of which you could get from a badger.   No need to don body suits or cordon areas off, but wearing gloves before touching a body and safety specs/masks if any risk of splashing fluids getting into nose/mouth are sensible precautions not health and safety gone mad.  The same precautions apply after a road accident or indeed a nose-bleed in a public place.  Back at the depot trains may need to be presure washed with disinfectant by specialists before the regular maintainance guys can get to work.   

No need for biohazard precautions to slow recovery down but they can't just be ignored.   

In a rescue operation where there are survivors you might decide to dispense with some precautions and take some risk in order to save lives.  But if the victim is already dead there isn't any excuse to ignore the precautions.