SWT: Barrier Policy - or not !!

[whole diary]

[moonrakerz]

About a month ago I was refused access to the platforms at Salisbury Station by a couple of less than polite SWT^▸ (South West Trains) employees, because I didn't have "a valid ticket".
Following a further (very polite) discussion with the duty manager I was given access. During this discussion I raised the subject of Platform Tickets and was told "we stopped selling Platform Tickets when the barriers were put in" !!!!! She WAS serious !"

Following this incident I wrote to SWT complaining about their staff (the first two !) and asking what their policy was now on platform access for non travellers.
Their reply totally ignored my comments about their staff and went on to inform me that as there were a lot of "less than honest " people around, EVERYONE would be treated as such.

(It was also obvious that the "letter" was a "press Enter to get standard reply letter to a complaint" as it referred to my having filled in their "Any Concerns" form.  As I had bothered to write a proper letter it would have been courteous, if nothing else, for someone to have done the same in response.)

Earlier this evening my wife and I went to Salisbury Station to meet my daughter arriving from Waterloo. As it was cold and raining we sat in the car until about 5 mins before the train was due; then we went into the booking hall - to find - all the gates locked open ! Not a single member of staff to be seen.

I can only assume that SWT think that all the "less than honest" folk are all in the pubs by 1815 on a Saturday !

[Chris from Nailsea]

You will often find all the barriers at Bristol Temple Meads similarly 'locked open' in the evening, moonrakerz ... 

[gaf71]

And at Exeter St Davids, at the time when they are most needed.

[IainH]

Under the penalty fares rules, set by DaFT^» (Department for Transport - critical sounding abbreviation I discourage - about), they are obliged to make 'an arrangement' for people seeing others off, or enthusiasts, to access the station. This is at stations with both penalty fares and a compulsory tickets area, if you have barriers but no penalty fares this does not apply.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=5

It doesn't have to be a platform ticket, although its difficult to think how anything else could work effectively. So you absolutely should not have been challenged, even politely, at worst you should have been sent to the ticket office or machine to buy a platform ticket.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Welcome to the Coffee Shop forum, IainH! 

A couple of weeks ago, when I had arranged to meet a member of this forum at Bristol Temple Meads, I simply had a word with the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) chap on the barriers and he let me through. On the way back out, I spoke to a different member of staff, and they also just nodded me through.

If that hadn't worked, my 'plan B' was to buy a return ticket to Lawrence Hill, and just use that as effectively a platform ticket at BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains)!

I think there should be proper platform tickets, and staff on the barriers should be rather more diligent in checking tickets generally, if the penalty fare system is ever going to work.

[Brucey]

A couple of weeks ago, when I had arranged to meet a member of this forum at Bristol Temple Meads, I simply had a word with the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) chap on the barriers and he let me through. On the way back out, I spoke to a different member of staff, and they also just nodded me through.

I think the barrier staff can be a little slack with checking tickets at BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) sometimes.  I've been let through having arrived without a ticket, see this post.

About a month ago I was refused access to the platforms at Salisbury Station by a couple of less than polite SWT^▸ (South West Trains) employees, because I didn't have "a valid ticket"

I don't know what SWT train their staff at "barrier school", but it certainly isn't customer service.  I've had a run-in with staff at the Havant barriers on several occassions previously.  Notably I wasn't allowed through with an advance ticket for Southern until the previous SWT train had departed "to prevent me getting the wrong train".  I've also had comments on my faded railcard (which is now replaced).  I tend to avoid this station and go from Cosham where there are no barrier staff to contend with.

[moonrakerz]

Under the penalty fares rules, set by DaFT^» (Department for Transport - critical sounding abbreviation I discourage - about), they are obliged to make 'an arrangement' for people seeing others off, or enthusiasts, to access the station. This is at stations with both penalty fares and a compulsory tickets area, if you have barriers but no penalty fares this does not apply.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=5

It doesn't have to be a platform ticket, although its difficult to think how anything else could work effectively. So you absolutely should not have been challenged, even politely, at worst you should have been sent to the ticket office or machine to buy a platform ticket.

Welcome to the forum Ian.

Thank you for that link, VERY interesting - I feel another letter to SWT^▸ (South West Trains) coming on !

The whole series of events on the first occasion was:

We went to Salisbury to collect our daughter travelling down from Kent. Normally she would have gone on to Warminster, but there were no through trains that day and as she had been unwell she asked if we could collect her from Salisbury.

My wife approached the young "lady" on the barriers and asked if we could go through. She was told very brusquely, not without a ticket. I then arrived and was told quite rudely, that in effect: "no ticket - no entry". End of story !
I then went to the booking office window and enquired about platform tickets.  At first I was told that "we don't sell them" - when I said that I thought they still existed, I was told "we have been told not to sell them". When I said that I needed to get onto the platforms, the response was "that's your problem", and the man turned away from the window !

I then asked at the barrier to speak to the Duty Manager, who was very polite, but was obviously "toeing the party line", hence her ludicrous statement about platform tickets. When I said that I could access the platforms at (say) Romsey without a hindrance, she then said that was "covered" because they had ticket machines ! I pointed out AGAIN that I didn't want to travel - just to meet my daughter ! 

Eventually she let us through. When we came to leave, we waited by the barrier for the original "lady" to let us out. She either had VERY poor eyesight  or deliberately ignored us. Eventually she did let us out with as much ill grace as she could muster.

The main reason I wrote and complained was the attitude of the first two members of staff, BUT I may well now chase up the barrier question again !

[Chris from Nailsea]

The main reason I wrote and complained was the attitude of the first two members of staff, BUT I may well now chase up the barrier question again !

In view of your account of that particular incident, moonrakerz, I'd encourage you to do so - and please do let us know the outcome, in due course!

Chris.

[paul7575]

Under the penalty fares rules, set by DaFT^» (Department for Transport - critical sounding abbreviation I discourage - about), they are obliged to make 'an arrangement' for people seeing others off, or enthusiasts, to access the station. This is at stations with both penalty fares and a compulsory tickets area, if you have barriers but no penalty fares this does not apply.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=5

It doesn't have to be a platform ticket, although its difficult to think how anything else could work effectively. So you absolutely should not have been challenged, even politely, at worst you should have been sent to the ticket office or machine to buy a platform ticket.

That rule is only in the Compulsory Ticket Area section though - so if the station hasn't a CTA^▸ (Compulsory Ticket Area) it may not be relevant.  Being a penalty fare station doesn't automatically require a CTA.  Salisbury shouldn't have a CTA as FGW^▸ (First Great Western) do not run a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) scheme there.

Yet another odd aspect of the PF rules - why isn't there a requirement to be able to deal with bona fide meeting and greeting at any station?

Paul

[moonrakerz]

That rule is only in the Compulsory Ticket Area section though - so if the station hasn't a CTA^▸ (Compulsory Ticket Area) it may not be relevant.  Being a penalty fare station doesn't automatically require a CTA.  Salisbury shouldn't have a CTA as FGW^▸ (First Great Western) do not run a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) scheme there.

Yet another odd aspect of the PF rules - why isn't there a requirement to be able to deal with bona fide meeting and greeting at any station?

Paul

What exactly is a CTA ?  As you rightly say Salisbury should not (normally !) have a CTA due to FGW not operating a PF policy on this route.
As far as I, as an ordinary member of the public, am concerned Salisbury IS a CTA - we were both informed that we needed a "valid ticket" to enter the platform area. If that isn't a CTA, what is it ?
Are SWT^▸ (South West Trains) making up their own rules ?

The DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) rules (from IanH's link) seem to be quite clear and unambiguous:

"4.10 At stations with a CTA, operators must make arrangements for people who are not travelling to be allowed into the part of the station covered by the CTA, if they have a good reason. This includes people who are meeting passengers, seeing passengers off or helping them with luggage, people helping passengers with disabilities, and people such as railway enthusiasts. The arrangements might include making platform tickets available at the ticket office or from a machine"


I am putting together another letter to SWT to see what that brings.

[Brucey]

What exactly is a CTA^▸ (Compulsory Ticket Area) ?  As you rightly say Salisbury should not (normally !) have a CTA due to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) not operating a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) policy on this route.
As far as I, as an ordinary member of the public, am concerned Salisbury IS a CTA - we were both informed that we needed a "valid ticket" to enter the platform area. If that isn't a CTA, what is it ?

The link above also states
4.9 Warning notices must be placed at each entrance to the CTA, in line with rule 4. CTAs can cause confusion if there are no barriers at the entrance to the platforms because people think that they are free to walk onto the platforms without a ticket. So it is very important that a CTA is clearly marked so that people know they must have a ticket or platform ticket before they enter that area.

This implies to me that they [SWT^▸ (South West Trains)] must have notices at the entrance to the CTA.  I can't imagine that a barrier would be an acceptable notice.

[adc82140]

I've had a similar experience at Salisbury when I wanted to help my fiance with her luggage onto a (FGW^▸ (First Great Western)) train. I was denied access quite brusqely, and when I wrote to SWT^▸ (South West Trains) (and FGW to inform them that SWT were denying assistance to one of their customers) I was given a completely irrelevant automatic response.

I didn't know that FGWs services were non PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)- does that mean I could have walked up to the barrier staff and tell them we were FGW customers, so it had nothing to do with SWT ticketing policy?

[paul7575]

I didn't know that FGWs^▸ (First Great Western) services were non PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)- does that mean I could have walked up to the barrier staff and tell them we were FGW customers, so it had nothing to do with SWT^▸ (South West Trains) ticketing policy?

You still need a ticket to travel on an FGW service, unless they start advertising a 'buy on board' policy, you won't get through the station barrier - whether it is human or automatic gateline.

Ignoring PFs for the moment, the National Conditions of Carriage and the byelaws already require you to have a ticket before you board.

Paul

[adc82140]

I wasn't travelling- my fiance was and had a valid ticket to do so. I was there to help her with luggage.

[readytostart]

AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know) Salisbury station is a CTA^▸ (Compulsory Ticket Area), National Rail enquiries shows PFs^▸ (Penalty Fare) being applicable to both SWT^▸ (South West Trains) and FGW^▸ (First Great Western) at that station.