Rail Tickets 'To Be Made Simpler'

[whole diary]

[didcotdean]

One of the main complaints of Seat61 against the 10p extra off-peak returns is that triangular journeys of
A->B->C->A come out as relatively expensive as they need three singles but I'm not sure how many people regularly make triangular journeys.

There is merit from a simplicity point of view to make all tickets singles, with possibly only two different price bands related to time etc. These could then be sold in carnets of increasing numbers and validity duration on smart cards that could potentially replace the concept of season tickets. Maybe a step too far though 

[Bmblbzzz]

It depends whether you see the single as being only 10p less than the return or the return as being only 10p more than the single. I think there's an assumption in some quarters that for the £10 single and £10.10 return, the "real price" of the single is about £5. It strikes me as very unlikely that any realignment of single and return prices would happen in that way.

[Lee]

Over here in Brittany we have a system on the local/regional trains of single fares at the following rates:

From 0 to 29 km: € 5 one way
From 30 to 69 km: € 10 one way
From 70 to 149 km: € 18 one way
Over 150 km: € 28 one way

Trains are shown in the timetable as either white or green depending on how busy they are expected to be. If you used your single ticket to travel outbound, then you can use that same ticket to return on a green train at no extra cost within 7 days.

For those under 12, their tickets will be free regardless of the route if they are accompanying a paying traveler. This free rate is valid for up to 4 children per paying traveler. If the child is traveling alone, they will pay half the adult fare.

During school holidays, the above single rates are halved on Tuesday-Thursday.

First Saturday of the month, all singles cost € 5.

Carnets of 10 tickets are available at the following rates, with one free trip granted per book:

From 0 to 29 km: € 45
From 30 to 69 km: € 90
From 70 to 149 km: € 162
More than 150 km: € 252

Rail passes are available, valid for unlimited travel for up to 5 people per pass. € 55 for 2 days, or € 110 for 7 days.

Various reductions are available for the usual societal groups you would expect.

On the interurban buses that operate within a single department (equivalent of UK^▸ (United Kingdom) county), a flat fare of € 2.50 is charged, with a carnet of 10 journeys available for € 20.

Those interurban buses that cross departmental boundaries are charged at € 2.50 for journeys under 30 km, € 5 for under 70 km, € 7.50 for under 110 km, and € 10 for over 110 km, with 10 journey carnets available at € 20, € 40, € 60 and € 80 respectively.

Once again, various reductions are available for the usual societal groups you would expect.

Duplication/Competition between bus and train services is kept to a minimum, and integration between the two maximised where possible as part of an overall network approach.

A number of towns/cities have their own municipal bus operator networks. All those that are rail-served will have a PlusBus style ticket  available, and a single unit ticket valid on all buses and train services within the municipal boundary, as well as Metro (Rennes) and Tram (Brest) services.

[Bmblbzzz]

That's pretty simple and seems quite a bargain.

[didcotdean]

For any who might think all the complexity is a 'privatisation' phenomenon, this Thames Television programme from 1976 goes through many of the tickets available then between Euston and Glasgow, with some byzantine restrictions the most complex of which is the 'Economy Return' which has to be booked 21 days in advance, travel only allowed on Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday and the return can't be the same week as the outward.

The attitude of the BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) Chief Passenger Marketing Manager is very illuminating too.

[broadgage]

For any who might think all the complexity is a 'privatisation' phenomenon, this Thames Television programme from 1976 goes through many of the tickets available then between Euston and Glasgow, with some byzantine restrictions the most complex of which is the 'Economy Return' which has to be booked 21 days in advance, travel only allowed on Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday and the return can't be the same week as the outward.

The attitude of the BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) Chief Passenger Marketing Manager is very illuminating too.

Indeed, though I suspect that the modern railway has introduced EVEN MORE complications than did BR.

And considering the particular example given above, I can see the logic of lower fares on less busy days, but why on earth should London to Glasgow be cheaper if booked 21 days in advance, than if on the day of travel ?

[Ralph Ayres]

I used to use those Economy Returns a lot as they were good value for a cash-strapped teenager, particularly as I just caught the wilderness time when you became an adult for rail fares at 14, and the Student Railcard as it was then didn't apply to schoolchildren.

My understanding was that the various restrictions were an attempt to exclude people who were likely to travel anyway (standard Sat-Sat holidaymakers, short business trips, days out etc) and tempt niche travellers who might otherwise perhaps use a coach or drive.  The 21 days requirement also I think allowed BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) to keep a bit of an eye on bookings and sometimes lengthen trains they thought might be particularly busy. It was a different world!

[ellendune]

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (as it was then) managed to change many of its fares so that a return was roughly twice the single fare without too much trouble.  So why not change the rest?

[grahame]

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (as it was then) managed to change many of its fares so that a return was roughly twice the single fare without too much trouble.  So why not change the rest?

Yes - and indeed congratulations to them for making that change across our area.   IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion) a change that had been overdue and moved it to a system that's about right on the flows were it was done, but there were winners and losers.   

As I recall it was done without causing a huge hike in fares, on the basis that most people bought returns anyway, so the headline was (or would have been) "single fares drop". But such good news typically does not stick in the headlines or memory or (as was intended, properly) did not result in huge reductions for many people so - like good news - soon forgot!

"So why not change the rest" ... because the bean counters see fares going down (all be that the ones that not many people buy), nothing really going up, and it goes against their instinct and ruling that the overall income must  remain unaltered.

The change was a brave one by FGW and it has in some cases lead to an extra complexity in buying tickets for the knowledgeable .  No longer get a peak return from Melksham (sorry, but I have an example already worked out) to London because you're going up in the peak and get the £1 fare back, but buy a single up and then a single back if your return is off peak.   Showing 2020 figures, but our table at http://www.mtug.org.uk/londonfares.html shows when to buy a return and when to buy singles.   And this is only 2/3 as complex as elsewhere as we go straight from anytime to super-off-peak into London - not a singe train at off-peak fares as there's a gap from 07:53 to 10:02



Edit - quite a lot added. Apologies to member(s) who liked original but are less sure of the extras!