Class 180 Adelantes - discussions, including their return to FGW

[whole diary]

[willc]

Well, the turbos on the Cotswold Line are only used off-peak

Not sure how you could describe the 05.48 and 06.48 from London to Great Malvern as off-peak trains.

Well, Off-Peak fares (SVR) are available on them!

Er, ho, ho. Only if you're travelling past Oxford. Nor for 'internal' Cotswold Line journeys. My point was pretty obviously related to rolling stock availability.

[ChrisB]

THose trains would be considered 'contra-peak'....

[IndustryInsider]

Well, the turbos on the Cotswold Line are only used off-peak, which is not really when the other turbo services need strengthening....so it's unlikely that they'll come from there.

As Will says, they certainly aren't used off-peak!  The three units are effectively out of action between the following times as they pop off to Great Malvern:

05:48 until 11:29
06:48 until 12:29
13:20 until 20:00

All three could thus prove very useful to strengthen peak hour services around Paddington.  Two of then were operated by a HST^▸ (High Speed Train)/180 until last year (the loss of that HST for the first of them was especially criticised by users at the time), there's no reason in principal why the other couldn't be too.

[ChrisB]

The reason that these were replaced by turbos is that the loadinghs didn't warrant an expensive HST^▸ (High Speed Train)/180....nothing has changed, so unless the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) makes recompense anything more expernsive won't be utilised.....

[IndustryInsider]

Yes, that's true.  I was originally suggesting where additional Turbo's could be sourced from to strengthen peak services, and then replying to your strange statement that Turbos weren't used during the peak on the Cotswold Line.  However, it's worth making the point that all three of those Turbo's do load to standing most days at some point during their journeys (the first of which usually has standing passengers from Slough as a 6-car!)  Sadly though, for the majority of the trip a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) is well over the top.

What might have changed is the leasing costs of a Class 180.  If nobody else wants them, and FGW^▸ (First Great Western) can secure them on a cheaper deal than before, then perhaps, just perhaps, they could be used on two of those three services to good effect?

[ChrisB]

yes, that may be possible....

[northwesterntrains]

Or one of the First Hull Trains Adelantes heading up to Kilmarnock for refresh.

If I waited for some more replies I would have seen that it was indeed 180109 (a Hull Trains unit) that has gone up to Scotland.  However, it's been revealed that Hull Trains have taken out a short term lease on 180102 to cover diagrams during refurbishment.

[willc]

The reason that these were replaced by turbos is that the loadinghs didn't warrant an expensive HST^▸ (High Speed Train)/180....nothing has changed, so unless the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) makes recompense anything more expernsive won't be utilised.....

Excuse me? The loadings didn't warrant a 180? In the case of the 05.XX ex-Pad/08.XX back from Worcester/Malvern for nigh on five years, oh yes they did. Which was why it was the first Cotswold working to be regularly operated by a 180 - and even with a 180 it often ran south of Oxford with people standing. An HST was too big, but only as far as Oxford. As Insider notes, another three-car Turbo is added to the set that has come from Malvern, to create a train with a remarkably similar seating capacity to, er, an HST.

And I'm sure with a bit of thought, one could come up with a mile-long list of HST workings, on the Cotswold Line and elsewhere, where the set is heavily loaded one way and very sparsely populated in the other direction.

The reason the HST was replaced was to cut running costs, pure and simple, irrespective of passenger comfort (resulting in the February half-term last year, just after the switch, in one of my worst-ever Cotswold Line journeys, and that's saying something) though we now have that six-car formation south of Oxford, plus, for the past 10 months, the 09.29 from Moreton operating, so I should think a large chunk of that supposed saving has vanished.

The next train out and back has never been worked by a 180/HST, even though there are times of the year, especially over the summer, when it leaves Hanborough with pretty much every seat taken - and it's not a train where lots of people do get off at Oxford, so can be very busy beyond there.

[super tm]

The reason the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) was replaced was to cut running costs, pure and simple, irrespective of passenger comfort (resulting in the February half-term last year, just after the switch, in one of my worst-ever Cotswold Line journeys, and that's saying something) though we now have that six-car formation south of Oxford, plus, for the past 10 months, the 09.29 from Moreton operating, so I should think a large chunk of that supposed saving has vanished.

I think at the time the main reason for the change was the very tight turn around at Foregate Street.  Even when running on time there was hardly enough time for the driver to change ends and depart on time.

[willc]

Well that's a new one on me - and since I used the 08.XX from Malvern most of the week, I think I would have noticed crippling timekeeping problems when using an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) - and if your timetable doesn't work properly, logic suggests you change it. It may have been turned back short at Worcester on occasion, but that would have been down to delays accumulated on the single line battling the flow of London-bound trains, not some inherent problem with that service's timings.

The official line from FGW^▸ (First Great Western) last year was the one about loadings that ChrisB has repeated - though as I say south of Oxford that made no sense anyway in the case of the 08.XX, hence the second Turbo being added, and we now have an extra train running part of the route as well.

Think I'll stick with what I was told by the CLPG^» (Cotswold Line Promotion Group - about) following their discussions with FGW - that managers were "hell bent" on cutting costs.

[ChrisB]

Think I'll stick with what I was told by the CLPG^» (Cotswold Line Promotion Group - about) following their discussions with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) - that managers were "hell bent" on cutting costs.

Indeed.....

The reason that these were replaced by turbos is that the loadinghs didn't warrant an expensive HST^▸ (High Speed Train)/180....nothing has changed, so unless the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) makes recompense anything more expernsive won't be utilised.....

Excuse me? The loadings didn't warrant a 180?

a three-car turbo holds as many as a 180. My bad - I should have left it as an HST only.

[IndustryInsider]

It was a very tight turnaround at Great Malvern, but if the train arrived on time it would usually depart on time - just.  The removal of the Malvern Link stop in the down direction gave an additional couple of minutes to work with at Malvern Wells - this stop has now been re-introduced as being a Turbo it's a much quicker turnaround. 

The timings on the return journey were also quite tight for a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) with plenty of passengers joining at all the stops - I think it was timed to do Shrub Hill to Oxford faster than any other HST service during the whole day, quicker than the Cathedrals Express which misses out Hanborough, so a bike at the wrong end of a platform, or a door left open often knocked it by a couple of minutes. 

So, I'd go along with the 'cost' argument principally, but there was a performance benefit too.

[willc]

But was it really a timing issue, or timing issues related to certain well-known infrastructure issues? Eg, the hefty timing allowance at Evesham to try to make sure it stays out of the way of the Cathedrals Express. And going to Malvern is a recent alteration (past two/three years?), as it turned back at Worcester for many years.

a three-car turbo holds as many as a 180

On paper, yes, but as we all know, the middle seat of the sets of three on Turbos is only occupied when things get seriously crowded, whereas on a 180 you actually get backsides on all the seats - and people are able to sit comfortably, which certainly ain't the case on a Turbo, unless you find 250 people without any arms!

[ChrisB]

Indeed, but you'll find cost per seat is the driver. 5 coaches copst far more to run around than three.

[woody]

To be absolutely blunt about matters and its sad to have say this but if British Rail (worts and all) had not precured the rolling stock it did for the then Western Region in the 10/15 years prior to rail privatisation where would FGW^▸ (First Great Western) be now.Firsts brief foray into the rolling stock market produced the class 180 a train too expensive to lease with too little capacity.Any talk of a return to FGW of the class 180s will need financial assistance from the tax payer.Basically all First can do out of its own resources is to refurbish and keep going the rolling stock it has,any new build will need government support,the same as it ever was.Privatisation was suppose to free the railways instead it has become even more ensnared to the treasury as we will all find out on October 20th when the government announces the outcome of its Comprehensive Spending Review.