Concessionary bus fares and EU rules lead to real problems

[whole diary]

[grahame]

It was very interesting to hear many of the aspects of bus operation and how the Concessionary fares system, and its extension next April, is filling the buses but that the bus companys are getting such low rates of pay for these journeys. In once case they've even had to withdraw a route that was fully loaded.

At Travel Watch South West yesterday, an independent operator (Western Greyhound) and company directors from both First and Stagecoach bus operations took part in a short impromptu open question and answer session which told the audience - well - far more than I knew as a bus passenger before!

The rates paid to the bus operators for pensioner's free travel is well below what a typical price would be and is actaully making a loss in some cases.   Talk was of payments at a very maximum of 80% of the real fare (and that being some Scottish cases) down to just 39% that was offerend to one southern operator (that was, though, increased on appeal).   And thouse figures are a serious problem when the companies are working on margins of around 8 to 10%.

The regular traveller, then, is subsidising through their higher fares the loss making free travellers.  The bus companies have no choice but to provide the free travel under law - 9:30 a.m. to 11 p.m  Monday to Friday, all day Saturday and Sunday, which can be extended by local agreement and often is.

At present, the scheme is a local one with concessionary travellers getting the bus in their own area to the limits of that area, then perhaps having to pay.   As from next April, the scheme goes national which means that a pensioner from Hull can ride in Torbay, with 62% (I think it was) of the regular journey cost paid for by the Torbay taxpayer, and the remaining 38% picked up by the non-concession bus users / bus company.  It was pointed out that a lot more people from Hull go on holiday to Torbay than go on holiday from Torbay to Hull.

New subject.  An EU^» (European Union - about) regulation that was designed to stop certain cross-border lorry abuse has been drafted such that local bus routes can no longer exceed 50km. Again, all the operators up in arms and talking about real hardship and some nasty cases. Ever wondered why the Chippenham to Bristol bus service has been split in two, with a change necessary at an ill-equipped roadside busstop in Marshfield? I understand this new EU rule is the reason. I also understand that the service now has districtly fewer users than before it was split!

[martyjon]

Come, come, whose having the wool pulled over his eyes then.

A bus operator runs a bus service to make a profit and pay a dividend to its shareholders. If a service did'nt pay or at least break even they would'nt operate it.

If a local authority is paying a local (albeit a part of a nationwide organisation) bus operator a subsidy to operate unremunerative bus services, the bus operator still budgets to end up with a surplus at the end of the day or they wouldnt tender to operate those services so put out to tender by the LA's. Why should'nt the Govenment of the day then, on behalf of all the LA's in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), legislate to introduce a concessionary fares scheme to benefit the less well off and less able members of the community. It is not as though the bus companies don't benefit from extra revenue by having the scheme in place, they do but it seems to me from your comments that they want their cake and eat it.

The operators stance, as it comes across to me from you comments Grahame, could be likend to a taxi driver wanting four times the displayed meter fare from you when you book a taxi from Melksham to Swindon for yourself and three of your friends to have a night out in Swindon clubing.

In my neck of the woods the LA sets out the fare structure for taxis and it does not include to my knowledge, an addon for additional  passengers luggage and bulky items, but I know from my usage of taxis in London some years ago that when you hailed a cab and more than one piled in then straight away extras were flagged up on the meter. The same with luggage, each case or bulky item was flagged up as an extra. THIS was the icing on the cake for the taxi operators and the bus operators should look the concessionary bus pass scheme as the icing on their cake as well, the profitable, break even and subsidised routes being the cake, without the concessionary bus pass scheme they would only have the cake and not the icing.

I REST my case.

[grahame]

Come, come, whose having the wool pulled over his eyes then.

A bus operator runs a bus service to make a profit and pay a dividend to its shareholders. If a service did'nt pay or at least break even they would'nt operate it.

Fill a 31 seat bus as 1 pound a seat and you take 31 pounds.  Put just 20 people in a 31 seat bus and charge them each 2 pounds, and you take 40 pounds.  The latter is the model the system is built on; the former is how some routes are now running and, yes, at least one route has been withdrawn already I am told.

If I was a regular user of a bus that got so busy that I was denied boarding from time to time, I would take to my car or look for another way.  Pensioners often can't / don't / have the spare time to wait an hour for the next one which if I'm off to work I do not.  So the profitable business is lost ...

The metrics of taxis are that they are priced based on an occupancy of 1 full fare passenger, not 20 full fare passengers.

OK - enough from me; this is an area in which I am not an expert and I know that there are some greedy, shark-like behaviours out there from the bus companies.  But I felt that this case and concern was worth an airing here.

[Conner]

The bus companies have a clever plan to get more money back for free concessionary fares. They often give out returns instead of singles. They don't care what the destination says on the ticket and are more the happy to make it say the full length of the journey for a one stop journey.

[vacman]

It's all a farce, you pay your extortionate bus fare (which in Cornwall are fare higher than the comparative train fare!) find a seat and then when some old biddy gets on who is travelling FREE and there are no spare seats then I have to give up my seat! is that fair? no it isn't, especially when there are a lot of people who have bus passes who have far more money than me!

[Conner]

I know. The bus fares are extorciante in Cornwall compared to the train which is cheap if you travel off-peak. I can (on a childs ticket) travel for roughly the same price between Helston and Penzance(10 miles) on the bus and Camborne and Plymouth on the train.

[vacman]

I know. The bus fares are extorciante in Cornwall compared to the train which is cheap if you travel off-peak. I can (on a childs ticket) travel for roughly the same price between Helston and Penzance(10 miles) on the bus and Camborne and Plymouth on the train.

A prime example is Penzance to Roseudgeon (between Penzance and Porthlevan, about 8 miles max!) which is ^4.30 return on the bus, off peak, and Penzance to Truro on the train which is about 30 miles is ^5 CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))!

[martyjon]

Grahame.

I got no sympathy for the bus operators, big boys or minnows on this.

In the example, 2 alternatives, you gave I am assuming that the operator is covering costs in both alternatives.

After the introduction of the Concessionary Bus Pass scheme the operators fare box income drops so the operator is forced to withdraw the service. Notice is given as required by statute. Public outrage ensues but look at the remedy.

Unless it has changed since I was a member of a local authority, in the case of a bus company giving notice of their intention to withdraw a service, officers in the relevent department of a local authority have delgated powers to issue, with due diligence, an emergency contract for the continuation the service. The procedure would then be for a report to be produced to the relevent sub-committee of the LA and a proposed remedy put forward to a full meeting of the aurhority. In the best scenario, the LA would agree for the service to continue as a supported service and seek formal tenders from operators, the likes of Stagecoach, First Group, Go-Ahead and Arriva right down to the one man band with 2 or 3 vehicles who operates from that converted barn at the end of the village are on a level playing field here and can put in a tender.

We need to know the full facts of the case you put forward Grahame so for the present lets reserve judgement.

[Lee]

Interesting related article (link below.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7107057.stm

[Lee]

"Plain English Guide to ITSO smartcards and National Concessionary Bus Travel in England" (link below.)
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/regional/buses/concessionary/local/ITSO_National_Concessiona2.pdf

[Tim]

I really dislike free bus passes and TV licencies for old people.  It is typical Labour interference in peoples lives.  Sure some old folk don't have enough cash for bus fares.  the solution would be to increase their pensions or lower their taxes rather than let them travel on buses and watch TV for free.  Some old folk would spend the money on  buses, some would buy a car or use taxis, some would spend it on gin and some would stick it in a matress.  What they do with it is noone elses business.  The state should step in to make sure that everyone has a reasonabe level of money but what they chose to spend it on should be left to the individual.

Can anyone defend free bus passes as a good use of taxpayers money?

[John R]

I think it would be more defendable at an older age, say 70 or 75. TV licences is less of an issue, as it doesn't create demand for more TV licences, and thus put the cost of providing the service up.   

[smokey]

With the old getting free bus travel, there is trouble ahead. Pensioners basically fall into two groups those who have decent pensions and have more spending money in a Month than I get all year, and those who have nothing but a pitiful state pension. what would you do? Stay at home trying to keep warm when you can't afford to eat or spend all day sitting on a nice warm bus with friends going everywhere and nowhere.

Free bus travel should only go to those that need it, like mothers with children struggling to keep a roof over there heads. Yes their are pensioners with little but there any manymore young mothers with children who get less.

I'm just glad this free bus travel doesn't extend to Free Rail Travel.

[grahame]

There is a lot to be said for giving pensioners the money that is spent on service for them via an increase in their pensions rather than the government treating them as if they're "not quite with it" any longer and deciding how money that's earmarked for their services should be spent.

I am fully aware that statement is likely to be create some controversy ... but it does seem at times that the government feels it knows best, when I rather suspect that most pensioners would prefer to have the CHOICE between a bus fare, a train fare, or the occasional Chinese takeaway if they're so minded!

[Jim]

Don't get me started on over 60's free travel!