HST hits tree at Lavington today - 10 July 2010

[whole diary]

[The SprinterMeister]

This situation is not possible, as each vehicle has an individual WSP system and whilst on 'other' forums, it has been claimed that the CCB tripped in the leading power car which (as has already been commented upon) is not surprising considering that the desk has been destroyed inevitably causing electrical shorts, this would have only disabled the WSP system in the leading powercar, not throughout the train.

What is the effect on the Westinghose WSP racks on the trailers due to the removal of voltage from train line 12?

What is the effect on the wheel slip sytem of a vehicle if all axles on that vehicle simultaniously cease to rotate?

[smithy]

Quoting a knowledgeable source: "The CCB tripped on the leading power car so all the WSPs turned off"

X

This situation is not possible, as each vehicle has an individual WSP system and whilst on 'other' forums, it has been claimed that the CCB tripped in the leading power car which (as has already been commented upon) is not surprising considering that the desk has been destroyed inevitably causing electrical shorts, this would have only disabled the WSP system in the leading powercar, not throughout the train.

The flats (Burns is probably a more appropriate word) were caused by...how can i put it...a slight operational error when the set was being rescued, but considering the unusual circumstances and the pressure to recover the stricken set, it is understandable.

the actual cause of flats throughout the set were as a result of losing train wire 12 when the desk was totalled,this then turned all WSP systems off and locked all wheels when emergency brake went in around 90mph.

as for repairs it is rumoured brush traction will be doing the work there is 1 cab assembly available in country that needs some slight repairs before being fitted.

[57604]

Quoting a knowledgeable source: "The CCB tripped on the leading power car so all the WSPs turned off"

X

This situation is not possible, as each vehicle has an individual WSP system and whilst on 'other' forums, it has been claimed that the CCB tripped in the leading power car which (as has already been commented upon) is not surprising considering that the desk has been destroyed inevitably causing electrical shorts, this would have only disabled the WSP system in the leading powercar, not throughout the train.

The flats (Burns is probably a more appropriate word) were caused by...how can i put it...a slight operational error when the set was being rescued, but considering the unusual circumstances and the pressure to recover the stricken set, it is understandable.

Very wrong on both counts.
1. The Westinghouse WSP racks need to see a feed on train wire 12 from the leading power car, granted the old WSP units were a self contained item, but not now. If you stand next to the trailer cars when the desk is opened you can hear the blow down valves operating as the unit runs through its self test.
No train wire 12 and they turn off. Huge chunk of tree trashing the desk caused CCB to trip, hence no TW12. Simples.
2. The flats occurred due to the above happening.
Nice try, but no prize. At least you got the circuit breaker initials right.

[JayMac]

Welcome to the forum 57604! Or can we call you "Pendennis"? 

[Henry]

 Anyway at least the train can be be put right.

 How is the driver, believe he sustained fractures ?

[The SprinterMeister]

 Anyway at least the train can be be put right.

 How is the driver, believe he sustained fractures ?

I believe he was due to fly out somewhere on his rostered two weeks annual leave today......

The last I heard from Plymouth people was that he was shaken (as obviously you would be) but not too upset by the accident at this point in time. Hairline fracture to wrist I understand.

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

Very wrong on both counts.
1. The Westinghouse WSP racks need to see a feed on train wire 12 from the leading power car, granted the old WSP units were a self contained item, but not now. If you stand next to the trailer cars when the desk is opened you can hear the blow down valves operating as the unit runs through its self test.
No train wire 12 and they turn off. Huge chunk of tree trashing the desk caused CCB to trip, hence no TW12. Simples.
2. The flats occurred due to the above happening.
Nice try, but no prize. At least you got the circuit breaker initials right.

Thank you for providing an informed response to this rather technical issue re Trailer WSP's.

[Sprog]

Quoting a knowledgeable source: "The CCB tripped on the leading power car so all the WSPs turned off"

X

This situation is not possible, as each vehicle has an individual WSP system and whilst on 'other' forums, it has been claimed that the CCB tripped in the leading power car which (as has already been commented upon) is not surprising considering that the desk has been destroyed inevitably causing electrical shorts, this would have only disabled the WSP system in the leading powercar, not throughout the train.

The flats (Burns is probably a more appropriate word) were caused by...how can i put it...a slight operational error when the set was being rescued, but considering the unusual circumstances and the pressure to recover the stricken set, it is understandable.

Very wrong on both counts.
1. The Westinghouse WSP racks need to see a feed on train wire 12 from the leading power car, granted the old WSP units were a self contained item, but not now. If you stand next to the trailer cars when the desk is opened you can hear the blow down valves operating as the unit runs through its self test.
No train wire 12 and they turn off. Huge chunk of tree trashing the desk caused CCB to trip, hence no TW12. Simples.
2. The flats occurred due to the above happening.
Nice try, but no prize. At least you got the circuit breaker initials right.

Sorry you're right, i forgot that they are all Westinghouse fitted now.

The flat cause was what ive been told from some high-up people at my place who should be pretty informed, but perhaps not.

[IndustryInsider]

The flat cause was what ive been told from some high-up people at my place who should be pretty informed, but perhaps not.

Even 'high-up' people often fall foul of the rumour mill. 

[The SprinterMeister]

The flat cause was what ive been told from some high-up people at my place who should be pretty informed, but perhaps not.

Even 'high-up' people often fall foul of the rumour mill. 

I doubt the driver of the 59/2 would have proceeded any great distance had the HST^▸ (High Speed Train) been resisting forward motion to the extent of causing the wheel damage that was observed. The Train Manager off 1C84 (26+ years service as a guard / TM^‡(resolve)) attached the 59/2 to the train so I very doubt any errors occured on that account. 

[57604]

Sorry you're right,

I know.

[57604]

Welcome to the forum 57604! Or can we call you "Pendennis"? 

Pen or Dennis, either is fine.

[Sprog]

Sorry you're right,

I know.

Wonderful....so vein......!

Really, without causing any undue panic, it is abit an oversight really, as the old fail-safe system has been replaced with one which is obviously less so.

So should power to train wire 12 be lost for any reason (i.e. dislodged or disconnected 36-way, CCB trip either end, Master Switch to OFF either by error or unsolicited) you potentially massively extend the braking distance of the train.

Scenario 1 - You are running along and the train hits some bulky debris on the line, this knocks out the 36-way jumper and the driver applies the anchors. The debris was dropped by a train ahead of you which also stopped quickly because of a sudden fault. Your train is now in an uncontrolled slide heading towards the back of the stationary train.

Scenario 2 - You are driving along at high speed and you suddenly see the line ahead is blocked; you hit the EMG plunger, Put the MC to OFF, anything that might help in the panic and then take cover. Train Wire 12 is now de-energised, you hit the obstruction at 110 in an uncontrolled slide rather than 75 with all the WSPs behind you doing their job.

Scenario 3 - You suffer an onboard fire whilst on the move. For the Fire Supression system in a powercar to function, the MC has to be in the OFF position. Granted, the Inergen will not discharge until the set speed falls below 6mph, but upon hearing the firebells, the Driver may instinctivley operate the EMG plunger and shut the desk down. Weeeeeeeeeeeee off we go into a slide....

Just a little bit of a design flaw!!!

[The SprinterMeister]

Sorry you're right,

I know.

And, as ever so wonderfully modest with it! 

[The SprinterMeister]

Scenario 1 - You are running along and the train hits some bulky debris on the line, this knocks out the 36-way jumper and the driver applies the anchors. The debris was dropped by a train ahead of you which also stopped quickly because of a sudden fault. Your train is now in an uncontrolled slide heading towards the back of the stationary train.

I think this is one of the reasons why we have a signalling sytem which ensures a red signal is displayed in rear of each train on most of the main lines. If a train stops for whatever reason the train in rear receives caution and danger aspects. And there is usually a goodly overlap between the red and the train in front on lines where the permitted speeds are 50mph or more. Therefore train one in your scenario is protected in rear by a red signal at least 200 yards in rear and cautionary signals anything up to 2000 yards in rear. Train two isnt therefore running at full chat when it is going towards stationary train one when it hits the obstruction that stopped train one.

I can see the issues with the WSP as a former HST^▸ (High Speed Train) driver and no doubt somebody will have to address them but there is no great need to panic I think. I understand 1C84 stopped in about one mile even with the WSP apparently not functioning.