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Author Topic: Crossrail/Elizabeth Line. From construction to operation - ongoing discussion  (Read 591254 times)
eightf48544
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« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2010, 10:38:04 »

Zoe ATO (Automatic Train Operation)? Do you mean Automatic Train Operation? I've never seen that mentioned I've always assummed DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) and conventional signalling with TPWS (Train Protection and Warning System) providing the train stop in the tunnel as per East London Line.

DOO now with possibly SDO (Selective Door Opening) as apparently Crossrail are allegedly (Modern Railways article on dwell times)  forbidden to lengthen the platforms at Hanwell because of environmental objections.

There is a small piece in today's Maidenhead Advertiser page 3 saying Maidenhead will still be part of Crossrail. Philip Hammond has allegdely committed the government to delivering the fill project Crossrail will serve all staions and that Cross Rail Ltd  has endorsed this.

If this means that wires only get to Maidenhead and that CRL goes to the expensive of building the turnback sidings at Maidnehad that would be a complete waste of money. Crossrail barely works West of Eastboune Terrace and terminating it at Maidenhead compounds the problem. It must go to Reading to make any sense.

It goes on to add there might not be any new DESIGN of train. Now castoff 319s would be OK but do they mean more 378s? That would be appalling with their longitudinal seats and large standing areas they would be totally unsuitable for the longer journeys on Crossrail. They are barely adequate for the North, East, West London and Watford Lines. 
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ChrisB
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« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2010, 11:06:24 »

If that is what ATO (Automatic Train Operation) stands for here, then Zoe is wrong.

New trains on a current design - prob aa follow-on from the Thameslink build?
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« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2010, 12:37:41 »

Now castoff 319s would be OK but do they mean more 378s? That would be appalling with their longitudinal seats and large standing areas they would be totally unsuitable for the longer journeys on Crossrail. They are barely adequate for the North, East, West London and Watford Lines. 

Nothing stopping a 378 based design being applied with a normal seating layout is there?  Corridor connections, 2+3 seating, and air-con - If Bombadier get the order, it sounds a bit like a Class 377 type of design to me.
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paul7575
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« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2010, 13:08:36 »

There is at least one place that mentions Crossrail ATO (Automatic Train Operation). The technical spec for Thameslink ATO...

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/thameslinkrollingstock/itt/trainspec.pdf

Quote
Through modelling, it has been established that the only available solution to achieving the high performance levels through the Thameslink Core Area is through ATO. For consistency with national policy and in order to minimise the complexity of onboard equipment it is necessary to integrate the ATO with an ETCS (European Train Control System) compatible ATP (Automatic Train Protection) system. This document has been developed to define the requirements of a Train Control System embodying ATO and ETCS.
This document is presented initially for consultation during the bidding phase of the procurement of the new Thameslink Rolling Stock, but it is intended in subsequent releases to become the single reference specification for all aspects of the Thameslink train control systems.
It is further intended that this document will be consulted with the Crossrail project team so that extensions to functionality that would better support the Crossrail operational concept can be incorporated as early as possible in the design lifecycle. In subsequent revisions this document will therefore become a national specification for high capacity urban Train Control Systems.

I always took that to mean that the Crossrail design already includes ATO?  As I've said before though, ploughing through the Crossrail site could take ages, but I'll see if I can find anything...

Quote
The signalling system on the new sections of line will be designed to provide Automatic
Train Protection, which is a system that supervises the driver^s actions. It will check that
the train stays within a braking trajectory when a caution signal has been passed,
ensuring that the train will come to a stand at the stop signal. In the central tunnels and
at points within the vicinity of the tunnel portals, Automatic Train Operation will automate
the driver^s function
. It will control train stopping at stations, control speed between
stations, ensure that only the doors on the correct side can be opened at each station,
ensure trains stop in line with platform edge doors and initiate door closing. The tunnels
will be bi-directionally signalled for use during disrupted operations (for example, if a
tunnel is blocked due to a train failure). On existing lines, the current signalling system
will be used. Traction power and signalling in the central area will be controlled from a
dedicated Crossrail Route Control Centre located to the west of Romford station.

From Crossrail Environment Stament Volume 1 Chapter 2 - I can't make a link to it but I guess if you're that interested you can find it anyway.

Thameslink ATO is intended for just the core 24 tph section between Blackfriars and St Pancras, outside this area the trains will be driven normally (with a Driver Aid system to advise on best speeds to maintain regulation). This seems just as likely an operating plan for Crossrails core section as well - don't forget it is TfL» (Transport for London - about) driven, and they are quite familiar with the concept of ATO.

Now many commentators over the last year or so have suggested that 24 tph either won't happen due to cuts, or that ATO isn't necessary anyway, because conventuional four aspect signalling will allow the headways at the slow speeds through the core. This may be true, but NR» (Network Rail - home page) have been quoted just as regularly denying any changes. 

The recent announcements about using off the shelf stock don't preclude ATO anyway, logically an Electrostar with ATO is still an Electrostar, in the same way a GW (Great Western) HST (High Speed Train) with ATP is still an HST.  Futhermore, since when did changing the seating layout count for anything?  A 2+2 seated 378 with 10 cars and ATP/ATO would meet the spec - I wouldn't call it a new design though.  Thameslink have already decided on 2+2 with large standback areas, I reckon if that comes off it'll be used on Crossrail too, and that will meet their commitment to not reinventing the wheel.

(As an aside, their latest announcements repeats the Whitechapel rediesign announced some months ago, and the bit picked up by all the media about reusing existing infrastructure in Docklands (ie the former NLL through the Connaught Tunnel) has always been the plan AIUI (as I understand it).)



Paul
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 13:28:28 by paul7755 » Logged
Zoe
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« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2010, 19:45:54 »

http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/2008/06/crossrail-to-have-ato.html

In an email from Crossrail:
Quote
Crossrail is using Automatic Train Operation (ATO (Automatic Train Operation)) in the central area from Ealing Broadway to Abbey Wood and up to Stratford station where it can be integrated with current automatic systems.
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Boppy
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« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2010, 14:52:49 »

Crossrail delayed by over a year?

http://www.building.co.uk/news/crossrail-delayed-by-over-a-year/5007595.article

To now open in 2019 only when it is all complete.

"Kulveer Ranger, the Mayor of London^s transport adviser, said that Crossrail would not open to the public with just the central section completed."

Why not?  Surely it would be good to have the shortened route opened first to iron out problems?  It could potentially generate revenue and thereby reduce costs?

Boppy.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2010, 14:54:16 »

So the order for the trains can be delayed until the last moment?
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paul7575
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« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2010, 15:17:42 »

Crossrail delayed by over a year?

http://www.building.co.uk/news/crossrail-delayed-by-over-a-year/5007595.article

To now open in 2019 only when it is all complete.

"Kulveer Ranger, the Mayor of London^s transport adviser, said that Crossrail would not open to the public with just the central section completed."

Why not?  Surely it would be good to have the shortened route opened first to iron out problems?  It could potentially generate revenue and thereby reduce costs?

Boppy.

Depends how you define Central Section doesn't it, and what order the tunnelling actually gets done in.  If the 'central section' only runs from Paddington to Whitechapel (for example), maybe they think they haven't got the capacity to deal with whole train loads of pax getting on or off there?

Paul
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« Reply #53 on: October 26, 2010, 17:49:26 »

A bit of technical information describing just why there's a multitude of orange heavy plant equipment working behind Royal Oak tube station.

http://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/construction-news/costain-and-skanska-crossrail-portal-project-underway
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Boppy
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« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2010, 11:08:24 »

Cheers for that link IndustryInsider.

The people working in the new Kingdom Street towers must have a nice view of the progress.
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Pedros
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« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2010, 11:33:02 »

When I was working in London, my office was on the 11th floor of CentrePoint and overlooked the works at Tottenham Court Road.  It was fascinating watching the Astoria come down (very slowly) followed by continuous drilling, digging holes, filling in holes and general bashing about.  The prospect of working on a building site for the next 5+ years finally drove us out of the building.
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #56 on: November 18, 2010, 11:58:40 »

A dozen or so new artists impressions of the new Crossrail stations have been released:

http://londonist.com/2010/11/crossrail_new_station_designs_revea.php

You can certainly see where a lot of the money is going as even with some budgetary cuts, the stations still all look magnificent!  For those who can't get their bearings, the first picture at Paddington is taken from a vantage point where all you would currently see is the taxi rank.
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devon_metro
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« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2010, 13:00:41 »

Looks spectacular. Resembles the JLE in many extents.
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Boppy
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« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2010, 13:02:47 »

Some additional ones on the gallery here:

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/press-releases/mayor-rail-minister-unveil-new-crossrail-station-designs-to-shape-future-london-1

Including a cut-away of the Paddington Crossrail station.

Boppy.
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« Reply #59 on: March 30, 2011, 22:18:21 »

Crossrail have announced that Alstom, Bombardier, CAF, Hitachi and Siemens have been short-listed as builders for the new Class 345 Crossrail units.
 
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/crossrail-issues-rolling-stock-shortlist.html
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