Crossrail/Elizabeth Line. From construction to operation - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[eightf48544]

The fundamental problem with Crossrail where ever it terminates West of Eastbourne Terrace/Paddington it doesn't work. Crossrail is an S Bahn service or Paris RE^▸ (Religious Education) service All stations end to end. 

You can't have 24 trains an hour coming out of the tunnel with only capacity for 10tph on the Relief Lines West of Padd. As they used to say in school 24 into 10 doesn't go!

However you timetable the service it means basically Reading will only get an all stations service to serve intermediate stations  most of the day instead of off Peak Semis to Hayes and Ealing, Twyford and Maidenhead will basically get only get all stations, certainly off peak, they may be lucky and get a couple of peak hour. What Slough gets I'm not sure does it still get the Off Peak Oxfords?

What we in the TV want is an electric railway to Swansea and Plymouth. If a few trains provide a through service down the Crossrail tunnels all well and good but not at the expense of disrupting the existing commuter flows in teh Thames Valley.       

[paul7575]

The fundamental problem with Crossrail where ever it terminates West of Eastbourne Terrace/Paddington it doesn't work. Crossrail is an S Bahn service or Paris RE^▸ (Religious Education) service All stations end to end. 

You can't have 24 trains an hour coming out of the tunnel with only capacity for 10tph on the Relief Lines West of Padd. As they used to say in school 24 into 10 doesn't go!

Isn't that exactly why NR^» (Network Rail - home page)'s London and SE RUS^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy) is now proposing a totally different solution, with destinations for all 24 tph found?  i.e. 10 tph Heathrow and beyond (eg Staines), 6 tph GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) and 8 tph WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) inner suburbans?

It wouldn't surprise me if a major review of rolling stock needs is underway, partly explaining the sudden delays to the procurement process, which the media have reported as a pro-Bombardier result - but that could just as easily be a sheer coincidence...
 
Paul 

[ChrisB]

You can't have 24 trains an hour coming out of the tunnel with only capacity for 10tph on the Relief Lines West of Padd.

The remainder will terminate in OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) & reverse won't they?

What Slough gets I'm not sure does it still get the Off Peak Oxfords?

Twice an hour, yes.

What we in the TV want is an electric railway to Swansea and Plymouth.

Who's this 'we'?....I've not seen any demand for it currently, so why will it suddenly start up?

If a few trains provide a through service down the Crossrail tunnels all well and good but not at the expense of disrupting the existing commuter flows in teh Thames Valley.

If it costs a *lot* less, I can see people using an all stations from Reading. Say a ^1500/year saving on an annual ticket....

[IndustryInsider]

But there'll be competition across fares - far cheaper on Crossrail.

Will there be competition on fares necessarily?  Has it been confirmed that Crossrail is to be a seperate franchise?  Surely there's the possibility that it might be combined with either the Greater Western or Greater Anglian franchises in whatever future form they take?

[ChrisB]

Isn't CrossRail going to be part of TfL^» (Transport for London - about)?....

[IndustryInsider]

Having done a bit of digging, in a manner of speaking it is, yes.  There'll be a Crossrail Train Operating Concession (CTOC) in a similar vein to the London Overground concession.  Though the exact difference between a concession and a franchise is not a great deal on the face of it.  So there would be nothing stopping FGW^▸ (First Great Western) from winning the Greater Western Franchise and then bidding sucessfully to run the CTOC, and if they did I wonder whether there would be a seperate fares structure as you say. 

There probably isn't a precedent as such, but by comparison, the fares seem to be all the same over routes which both London Overground and another franchisee runs, such as Clapham Junction to Kensington Olympia, or New Cross Gate to Norwood Junction.

[Zoe]

Having done a bit of digging, in a manner of speaking it is, yes.  There'll be a Crossrail Train Operating Concession (CTOC) in a similar vein to the London Overground concession.  Though the exact difference between a concession and a franchise is not a great deal on the face of it.  So there would be nothing stopping FGW^▸ (First Great Western) from winning the Greater Western Franchise and then bidding sucessfully to run the CTOC, and if they did I wonder whether there would be a seperate fares structure as you say.

One key difference with the London Overground concession is that LOROL^▸ (London Overground Railway Operations Ltd) simply run the trains for TfL^» (Transport for London - about) with TfL setting the fares, train frequencies and branding, if this is the model to be followed then the winner of the concession would not be able to set their own fares even if they also operated the Greater Western franchise.  I can't see justification for TfL to set the fares as far as Maidenhead though as it's well outside their area so maybe FGW fares will apply outside of the zones regardless of who wins the concession in the same way that London Midland fares apply from London to Watford Junction.

[ChrisB]

Both valid points there.

I'm sure I read somewhere in an interview that there was intended to be fare separation, and if Reading was the terminus, whether Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) would be permitted out that far? I guess we're all waiting for this info to emerge - Government needing to decide whether its MAI^▸ (Maidenhead station) or RDG^‡(resolve) first.

[Btline]

Perhaps Reading will have to become "Zone R".

Will there be announcements on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) "please note, TfL^» (Transport for London - about) tickets and Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) cards are not valid on this train".

Or will touching in/out at Paddington Mainline gateline result in a higher fare deduction?

[Zoe]

Perhaps Reading will have to become "Zone R".

Or it could simply be outside the zones with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) set fares applying.  TfL^» (Transport for London - about) could use a "Zone R" internally but there would be no need for it to be displayed to the public in the same way that TfL internally use Zone W for Watford Junction which is outside the zones and has fares set by London Midland.

[eightf48544]

In answer to Chris B's points.

Yes 14 tph out of 24 will terminate at Eastbourne Terrace and emptied and doors shut. See thread on Oxford terminators. They are already making provision for overcarries with a platform at Westbounre Park!

"What we in the TV want is an electric railway to Swansea and Plymouth.

Who's this 'we'?....I've not seen any demand for it currently, so why will it suddenly start up"

What I should have said is "I" want the wires because an electric railway is a better railway. Cleaner faster plus diesels going to run out etc. Of course there's the problem with the Brunel insulters in Maidenhead who don't want wires on his bridge.

As to fares don't forget not only Reading but Twyford, Maidenhead, Taplow Burnham Slough Langley  and Iver are all outside Zone 6 and so far Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services). So separate Crossrail fares is going to cause confusion to say the least ie Will Crossrail fares be available on the fast Oxfords to Slough change for Taplow?.

[paul7575]

In answer to Chris B's points.

Yes 14 tph out of 24 will terminate at Eastbourne Terrace and emptied and doors shut. See thread on Oxford terminators. They are already making provision for overcarries with a platform at Westbounre Park!

I believe the idea is that all Westbourne Park turnback sidings will be signalled to passenger standards with platforms, and the odd overcarry to the sidings will be accepted - with 24 tph arriving at Paddington LL from the core route, which are 10 cars long, there won't be time to go through the train checking for passengers within the designed dwell time - unless maybe you have 10 staff on the platform doing a coach each...

As to fares don't forget not only Reading but Twyford, Maidenhead, Taplow Burnham Slough Langley  and Iver are all outside Zone 6 and so far Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services). So separate Crossrail fares is going to cause confusion to say the least ie Will Crossrail fares be available on the fast Oxfords to Slough change for Taplow?.

There is no fundamental difference to the current situation on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (and indeed on most TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company)) where Oyster PAYG^▸ (Pay as you go) fares are available only to some last station either in or outside the zones, with trains carrying on beyond?

What you may get beyond the zones is something like the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) where there are currently either Any Permitted or LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) only fares and seasons.

But in either case I can't see a new 'fares problem' developing here - the only decision to be made is where the final Oyster PAYG station is on the line.  The current examples of Watford Junction (LM) and Grays/Chafford Hundred/Purfleet/Ockenden (c2c) are outside the numbered zones and Oyster PAYG just charges the appropriate TOC fare for those destinations already - and they are now discussing extending Oyster PAYG up the FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) lines to places like Welwyn GC^» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line)...

Paul

[ChrisB]

No, they wouldn't. You would stay on Crossrail all the way

[paul7575]

No, they wouldn't. You would stay on Crossrail all the way

Is that a reply to something I wrote?

Paul

[ChrisB]

No, sorry - its in answer to the qiestion in your quote which you also answered.

You are correct in referring to the LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) example on the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line)