I want more trains, services, ETC

[whole diary]

[159jim]

I'm Jim Kettle, i'm 14 and im from Salisbury, and theres a few things I would like to shout out to Britain's Rail Network!!!!


-Firstly, I want FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to oporate a houl;y service to Brighton, Not 1/2 times daily!

-I want XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) to make their Paignton runs at least hourly, like VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) did before they passed the franchise over to Arriva back in the old days!!!

-SWT^▸ (South West Trains) to bring back their Brighton service.

-SWT to bring back their West of Exeter service

-ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) to bring back their Manchester-Waterloo service

-Bring Barleston station back!

-Give Three Oaks, Doleham & Winchelsea back it's hourly service!!!

-LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) to Bring back their Gloucester-Worcester shuttle!!!

-FGW to bring back their 158s on the Devon Metro

-FGW to bring back their Westbury-Southamptobn shuttlet at at least two hours.

-FGW to bring back then Penzance-Portsmouth service!





So, any comments, questions, points of veiws, etc?

Thanks,
Jim.

[Timmer]

Sorry Jim but I think your wish list will remain just that. Can't comment on Barleston station and giving Three Oaks, Doleham & Winchelsea back it's hourly service because I don't know anything about these places, but the rest I don't think you will ever see apart from possibly a more frequent service between Westbury and Southampton one day.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Also, 159james, could you reduce the size of your avatar, please?

Thanks,

Chris. 

[Ollie]

As nice as your wish list is - any chance of bit more detail? You ideally need to back it up - as for example hourly FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to Brighton I doubt would get the useage - unless you know otherwise.

And why Manchester to Waterloo??

[grahame]

There are probably some strong cases for improvement in your list - but it strikes me that every line of yours says "bring back" and it gives the whole package a touch of nostalgia.  We can (and should) learn from history. In each case "bring back" implies a service that someone felt was justified - but then a service which someone (someone else, probably) felt was no longer justified.  And the question is "what do people want / need for 2016, 2021, 2026 ...".  Sometimes it may turn out to have strong similarities to what was provided in 1996, 2001, 2006 ... but more often than not it / the reason will differ.

Look forward, James.  Look at how and where people want to travel - where trains will be nesting ("Nearly Every Seat Taken") all day, every day, and at fares that will pay for them.   Where you'll be doing huge favours for the economy of the area(s) served too - bringing people to businesses, providing relief for overloaded existing services and road, and where growth and rearrangement of areas has brought strong new ties between communities that used to be in different political areas but are now in the same constituency / unitary authority / devolved country.  And looking forward in that way, you'll see where some of the service improvements that just could happen be in the future.

Long distance, occasional trains running over routes which have an otherwise-clockface service worry me.  Are they going to break the clcokface of the rest of the services?  Are they going to abstract passengers from the trains that run before and after, just spreading 2 trainsworth over 3 trains?  How many people are really going to make the through journey?   And would those people prefer a timetable that's hourly, nicely presented when they need it but with a change of service midway rather than having to time their journey?  Which is not to say I'm not against joining up services - indeed, on balance it could be sensible to do so if the type of train on both legs if the same, and you're not risking too much delay propogation across lines.

So ... looking at your list.  Salisbury -> Westbury is the only section of the Portsmouth -> Cardiff line that doesn't have  at least 2 trains per hour, and it's always very busy; a strong flow nearly all day, nearly every day. But Westbury's strength is in onward journeys and connections, and if you're going to end the service there, you had better provide connections / services onwards.  2 trains an hour is about the right level but it's no good if one is packed and the other provides purely for local passengers to that destination.   North from Westbury, you have a further and overlapping flow of people travelling - Salisbury, Warminster, Westbury to Trowbridge, Chippenham and Swindon and once you add that leg onto the service, it starts to look strongly justified - and that's based on recent research - see http://atrebatia.info/report.html (and I can provide a lot more work on the cases to anyone who wants to go in detail).   It is then worth considering joining up services that arrive is Salisbury from the east or south with the extra service that heads out to the west / north, and indeed there's a minority view that has such a linkage as being fundamental to the service's success, though I've not seen the background commercial or operational justification of that criticallity.

I'm going to limit my comments to the line / service / section I know, James, and to the general comments.  I suspect others would be able to comment similarly on the future prospects for service patterns on the flows you mention.

[paul7575]

As far as I can see, as a regular on the route, the hourly SN service from Brighton to Southampton is a far better use of the capacity on the West Coastway, indeed especially now that it includes an hourly Sunday service, the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services are an overprovision in the hours they run, and as we know from the weekday eastbound afternoon service, the SN has to be diverted via Eastleigh to make room for FGW running just ahead. This leads to the odd situation at Fareham (and all stations east of there) of a packed 2 car DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) closely followed by a mostly empty 3 or 4 car EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) 3 or 4 minutes later.  Unfortunately it has to run to get back to Brighton for its next trip.

Now, when you ask for SWT^▸ (South West Trains) to reinstate hourly runs to Brighton as well, the simple answer is that they cannot, because 'their' paths are now used by SN, indeed the 'West Coastway' is at capacity in the busiest areas.  Furthermore, SWT's Basingstoke service wasn't a full hourly service anyway - in the morning peak it ran, and still runs, from Portsmouth Harbour, and in the evening peak it still runs to Portsmouth Harbour.  Secondly, in the hours FGW ran to/from Brighton, SWT didn't run - their trains started or terminated at Fareham.  The other benefit of the SWT service often quoted was the extension every three hours to Reading - this would no longer be possible as the paths were reallocated for freight.

West of Southampton, the route as far as Salisbury has a better service than before, because DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) directed that SWT replace FGW as the local service provider, so the intermediate stations have probably their best service ever.

In general, I think there is a balance to be struck between a clockface hourly timetable with standard pattern calls and occcasional through trains. It is probably best to use stations like Salisbury and Exeter as hubs, running a few SWT services to Paignton for instance means that a few other services don't go to Paignton - swings and roundabouts.  Is it best to have an hourly Waterloo to Exeter service, or the random extensions that went before, given that rolling stock is a finite commodity.

Paul

[grahame]

Paul - I'm really interested by your follow-up there.   The line along the South Coast isn't one that I'm all that familiar with, although I did use the old Brighton to Plymouth service a couple of times when it a class 33 hauling coaches ... more, it must be admitted, to use an interesting service than because I especially needed to make the journey without changing.

I have often wondered what the rationale is behind one diesel train a day from Malvern making its way all along the electric line from Southampton to Brighton, and another one doing an all-electric run from Portsmouth to Brighton. I have heard it suggested that the diesels run our to Brighton to provide extra peak capacity in (morning) and out (evening) but I'm unclear as to why that should be a diesel train / why it has to go beyond Southampton in the evening.  I have also heard it suggested that these services are scheduled to give the Greater Western Franchise (West Fleet) a good slice of revenue from a lucrative line to help balance the books and help put the franchise payment up.   Not sure that I believe that one, though ...

[Henry]

 Correct me if I am wrong, but I cannot remember VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) running an hourly service to Paignton.
 Selfish point of view, I would like to see it. Could never understand the 1hr 20min gap between Newton Abbot-Paignton
 in the morning.
 I think the hourly service Exeter-Waterloo has benefits, not only provides an alternative to Paddington, but during
 service disruption (as today).

[tramway]

I have often wondered what the rationale is behind one diesel train a day from Malvern making its way all along the electric line from Southampton to Brighton, and another one doing an all-electric run from Portsmouth to Brighton. I have heard it suggested that the diesels run our to Brighton to provide extra peak capacity in (morning) and out (evening) but I'm unclear as to why that should be a diesel train / why it has to go beyond Southampton in the evening.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as the Malvern run is concerned it wasn't always like that.

I suspect the original diagramme goes back as far as BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) regional, and then Wales and West and was just a Bristol/Brighton run. In Wessex days their 31's covered the turn on Fridays. With stock optimisation they combined the two services and the same stock does Malvern/Bristol/Brighton.

[grahame]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as the Malvern run is concerned it wasn't always like that.

You're right - I was more looking at a diesel unit which from start of service to 10:42 is running on electric lines, and another from 14:32 to 18:42 doing the same thing - in fact is "a packed 2 car DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) closely followed by a mostly empty 3 or 4 car EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) 3 or 4 minutes later" and I'm scratching my head a little, wondering if this is a rather good example of the occasional extra service which disrupts the clockface and abstracts traffic from it.    Yes - the service does slot into the clockface north from Westbury.

[paul7575]

I was reminded of this discussion about taking up paths when an odd train came up on the PIS^▸ (Passenger Information System) at Eastleigh this afternoon... 

The 1409 FGW^▸ (First Great Western) service to Portsmouth Harbour and Brighton, formed of 6 coaches, splitting at Fareham. Presumably formed from the trains that would have been the 1404 and 1434 through Southampton on a normal weekday, but I was unable to work out if the two portions had joined up earlier, eg at Bristol, having run from Cardiff and somewhere else (such as Great Malvern).  Will have a look at LDBs tomorrow and see if it happens again.

Paul 

[JayMac]

Suspect this was a Bank Holiday only running. No mention in printed timetables however, of the separate services, 1F13 and 1O98 running thus on Bank Holidays.

Possibly may see the same again tomorrow (1F17 and 2C18) and Monday.

EDIT: Further investigation shows that the CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains)-PMH service was experiencing delays and joined up with the following Brighton service at Westbury, thus running in one path as far as Fareham. I think - if I'm reading LDB right...

[paul7575]

The Portsmouth service was on time at Eastleigh though - the Brighton was effectively running 30 mins early - that's what was unusual.  I'm pretty sure it's for the engineering works rather than the bank holiday, but they've run separately through Eastleigh on previous occasions.  NREs^‡(resolve) does show it splitting again tomorrow and Monday, but only shows a Cardiff origin.

Paul

EDIT - engineering works between Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa - that will have knocked out the normal origin for the Brighton service I expect...

[vacman]

When did Virgin ever run anything like hourly to/from Paignton??

[thetrout]

When did Virgin ever run anything like hourly to/from Paignton??

I recall a morning train VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchises) Service from Penzance to Dundee (I think) that didn't call at Exeter St Davids...!

I often think that VT just make it up as they go along...