Disruption in Cornwall. 9th August 2011

[whole diary]

[vacman]

The "jumper" was put before Bodmin mags the next morning and sentenced there and then.

[grahame]

I'm trying to work out the maths of the newspaper reports.   

They talk of 6000 FGW^▸ (First Great Western) customers and 4000 other train operator customers being inconvenienced and I'm some what surprised at the proportions.  Are there really 4 XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) passengers for every 6 FGW passengers deep in Cornwall?

The report states that the train operators face losses of 83,000 pounds.  My understanding is that under the current "cap and collar" arrangement, around 75% of losses are met by the government, so does that mean that the real income that was lost (in revenue that failed to be taken) was actually around 332,000 pounds, with the taxpayer picking up a tab of about a quarter of a million?

Finally, not all the people who would have travelled on the trains would have been lost as revenue. Some people, for sure, will have switched to the road or not travelled at all, but many other would simply have travelled anyway once the line was re-opened.  Presumably the 83,000 pounds quoted as a "loss" took this into account - what's the sort of income figure, then, if that's not taken into account?  i.e. what proportion would have been lost?

I'm looking to learn a little more about how some of these financial systems work, to help in working out and understanding out some of the TransWilts figures.

[LiskeardRich]

i shouldnt imagine the individual has appeared in court and given a discharge already. you must of read about a different case.
a defendent has to be issued with minimum 6 weeks notice of a court appearance to prepare your legal defence, and such.

are you sure about that.  Plenty of cases already been concluded in London for people involved in the riots.

yes, sorry as pointed out above the 6 week rule only appears to apply for crown court, i was under the impression it applied to all court hearings. My understanding is you can have a bail hearing, but the formal hearing has to be 6 weeks notice

[Tim]

I'm looking to learn a little more about how some of these financial systems work, to help in working out and understanding out some of the TransWilts figures.

Good luck with that Grahame.  I am not sure that these contrived money-go-round systems actually do work.  For example, it has been said before that compensation for engineering work, with TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) will untimately benefit from means that in some cases TOCs do better from having NR^» (Network Rail - home page) close the line and pay compensation than they do actually having to run the trains and sell tickets. 

[JayMac]

yes, sorry as pointed out above the 6 week rule only appears to apply for crown court, i was under the impression it applied to all court hearings. My understanding is you can have a bail hearing, but the formal hearing has to be 6 weeks notice

The guy pleaded guilty, so no need for six weeks for a defence to be prepared. Magistrates can chose a fine or discharge sentence immediately. After a guilty plead they can defer sentencing for a number of reasons. Examples being to request a pre-sentence report from the Probation Service or committal to Crown Court if they feel they have insufficient sentencing powers.

[smokey]

I'm trying to work out the maths of the newspaper reports.   

They talk of 6000 FGW^▸ (First Great Western) customers and 4000 other train operator customers being inconvenienced and I'm some what surprised at the proportions.  Are there really 4 XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) passengers for every 6 FGW passengers deep in Cornwall?

The report states that the train operators face losses of 83,000 pounds.  My understanding is that under the current "cap and collar" arrangement, around 75% of losses are met by the government, so does that mean that the real income that was lost (in revenue that failed to be taken) was actually around 332,000 pounds, with the taxpayer picking up a tab of about a quarter of a million?

Finally, not all the people who would have travelled on the trains would have been lost as revenue. Some people, for sure, will have switched to the road or not travelled at all, but many other would simply have travelled anyway once the line was re-opened.  Presumably the 83,000 pounds quoted as a "loss" took this into account - what's the sort of income figure, then, if that's not taken into account?  i.e. what proportion would have been lost?

I'm looking to learn a little more about how some of these financial systems work, to help in working out and understanding out some of the TransWilts figures.

It needs to be remembered that whilst this Idiot held up Trains in Cornwall the fact is Trains that were held up effect everyone using that service.
If the 08:28 Penzance to Glasgow is your service home from work from Edinburgh Waverley than this mans actions effected passengers in Scotland.

[smokey]

^83 000 loss for the Train operators, as little as that?

What would it have cost Network Rail who will being paying out ^160 per minute per train effected?

I heard from a Person who attended that Court Case that NR^» (Network Rail - home page) may have to fork out more like ^850 000

[vacman]

The high proportion of XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) pax affected was due to the timing of the incident, had it happened about an hour or so later there would have been no XC pax effected.

The costs are about right, the knock on effects are huge, stock and traincrew displacement, onward connections up country being effected etc etc.

[Oxman]

I suspect the quoted cost was based on the notional cost of delay minutes - there would not have been time for any other calculations! NR^» (Network Rail - home page) would have applied its standard rates for delay minutes and cancellations to the numbers recorded by Trust to arrive at the total cost. Delay minutes vary from something like ^5 per minute on a branch line service to ^100 per minute on a class 1 between Padd and Reading. Its not just the services directly affected, but also any knock on effects to other services - these are often significantly larger than the directly affected services. I don't know the cost attributed to cancelled/caped services. NR is responsible for any "external" delays, such as trespass, and compensates the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) accordingly.

As an example of knock on costs (and one with which I was at one time very well aware of), at Oxford, 1W47, the 1647 off Oxford to the Cotswolds was allowed two minutes at Oxford - not a lot for an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) that was well loaded on arrival and was a popular service from Oxford. Bikes in the TGS were (and probably still are) a regular cause of delays. If Trust recorded three minutes or less on the platform, then no delay was attributable to the station. Four or more minutes was an attributed delay for which the Station Manager was responsible. Because of the intense use of the single line, other services would then be delayed, including an up Padd service that would then delay other services between Reading and Padd. A two minute delay to the down Cotswold service could easily grow into 60ish minutes of knock on delays, at an average cost of ^80 per minute!

Not surprisingly, the result was a great deal of management attention - it was not unusual to see the Station Manager assisting on the platform!

[bobm]

How are delay minutes attributed if incurred dealing with wheelchair passengers.  Even though staff are generally very good at having the ramp ready in the right place it takes time to get a disabled passenger onto a train and settled into the correct space.  It's not a job you want to rush either.

[paul7575]

Recorded internally but not included in final figures, I believe.

Paul

[Oxman]

On FGW^▸ (First Great Western), if its a staffed station, the delay is attributed to the station manager. If its an unstaffed station, the delay will go to the guard's manager.

[Maxwell P]

How are delay minutes attributed if incurred dealing with wheelchair passengers.  Even though staff are generally very good at having the ramp ready in the right place it takes time to get a disabled passenger onto a train and settled into the correct space.  It's not a job you want to rush either.

The above is reasonable comment I feel.  However,if an unreserved, wheelchair-bound passenger turns up at a station to catch an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) and the disabled places are already booked, there can be problems getting the passenger comfortably installed.  Of course crew are trained to recognise and assist with a wide range of disabled customer issues and  do their utmost to assist, but extra minutes do get lost in such cases, particularly at an unstaffed station and/or ones with a short platform.  Standing instruction for TMs^‡(resolve) is to notify the delay attribution service ASAP if this occurs.  As FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are thus complying with the various codes of practice ref disabled passengers and always attempt to go above and beyond the provisions of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, I wouldn't imagine that attributing minutes lost in this way is too onerous a task.

FGW