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Author Topic: Chiltern Mainline: Nice & Fast!  (Read 109264 times)
JayMac
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« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2011, 15:56:22 »

Gentlemen, lets keep the debate civil. By all means offer your alternative point of view, but lets not get too personal when offering that POV. Using CAPS comes across as a bit shouty and confrontational.

If you do want to discuss differing opinions robustly then I'm sure we can arrange a face-to-face meeting. I'll referee.....  Roll Eyes
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ChrisB
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« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2011, 16:08:55 »

My point in using CAPS was that someone was failing to *read* my ptrevious post, so I needed him to actually read what was posted. I will use bold if CAPS Aren't welcome.
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Btline
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« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2011, 17:06:52 »

Insert "shocked" smily at that post! Calm down - that's as bad as me after I've travelled XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise))! Shocked Cheesy

If all the services are full, how did the TT work before before when according to the droves of comutters complaining they "always" got a seat. Perhaps the increased journey times and improved car parking have caused a passenger rush.

So you moan at Mainline AXING stops, but then moan at the Mainline being too full to stop. I was review the Mainline service. If that can't stop, then please don't drag it into the "commuter" TT issues.

I thought the OXF» (Oxford - next trains) services were going to be extensions of Bicester terminators, or has this changed? Certainly in 1 draft TT, there would be no need for "spare paths". I accept that this may have changed.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2011, 17:22:19 »

Fewer trains in the high-peak hour concentrates pax into choosing more carefully. Higher loadings on one particular train can occur very easily. THe trains just outside this high-peak may quite possibly be quite empty.

I didn't moan at Mainline stops being AXED. I was just saying that a solution would not be to make them stop in the heartlands as 1) they're full already, and 2) Chioltern won't want to spoil their just-launched Mainline TT.

Errr - there aren't many Bicester terminators in the new TT. You can see that for yourself if you took the tiome to look on their website. Off-peak that's possible....

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Btline
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« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2011, 18:47:17 »

I'll admit that I haven't looked at the updated "commuter" timetable yet so I didn't realise the Bicester terminators had been AXED. I knew the Gerrards X ones had been AXED.

Why are there fewer trains in the high peak? With the loop lines at Princes R and Ruslips I thought that Mainline train would overtake stoppers, allowing even more stops. Plus some mainline trains do make stops.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2011, 10:33:22 »

Very few do.

Under the old TT, there were too many heartland trains that Mainline wouldn't be able to get past all necessary to achieve the timings Chiltern want, so they hjad to cut out trains. THey don't seem to now be using the UP line at HWY to pass trains in down platform - but the others are all in use.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2011, 10:37:48 »

Not last night or this morning they weren't.

Not sure yet what went wrong....last night seemed to be a general signal failure at WRU, meaning 80 minute delays on the up and around 50 mins on the down. Carnage later in the evening with drivers out of hours refusing to bring their trains back to MYB (London (Marylebone))...are they on an overtime ban?

One driver said the delays this morning - just north of HDM to PRR (Princes Risborough) - was causing by "fairy liquid on the line, put there by kids"....I suspect the drivers are getting pretty pissed off with a TT that isn't working.

A Meet the Manager tonight will cause congestion on the station I suspect with a lot of pax wanting to talk/complain, and a tweet the manager with their TT guru on Thursday might get hairy too I suspect.

But all kudos for not hiding away!
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Btline
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« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2011, 11:37:37 »

It's a shame more loops/ 4 tracking wasn't put in. The tunnel at Gerrards X leaves space for 4 tracks. Beaconsfield was due to have fast lines in Evergreen 2, but this plan was AXED.

Why are there so many signal failures? The phrase "can't build anything these days" comes to mind. And people moan when train orders are given to Germany! The number of failures on the WCML (West Coast Main Line) is also nothing short of unacceptable considering the cost up the upgrade.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2011, 12:06:31 »

I think that's a question for Atkins the contractors, and Network Rail who signed the work off.....
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inspector_blakey
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« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2011, 19:28:44 »

Carnage later in the evening with drivers out of hours refusing to bring their trains back to MYB (London (Marylebone))...are they on an overtime ban?

I have no knowledge of the specific situation, but as far as I'm aware they're not. It may be that they were getting close to Hidden limits (limits on the length of shifts safety critical staff can work, arising from the Hidden report after the Clapham Junction crash)...?
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ChrisB
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« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2011, 19:40:11 »

Quite possible.

Reasonably positive meet the manager session tonight - there's no doubt that they are aware of where the problems lie. But the majority were obvious if they'd looked at it from the passengers p.o.v.

Indeed, I pointed one obvious one out when the TT came out for consultation, and failed to get dealt with in any wsy satisfactorally. It will likely get dealt with in the next couple of weeks.

Kudos to them though big time - instead of hiding away, the big guns came out tonight & their Timetable guru hits their Tweet account on Thursday morning for an hour.
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2011, 23:52:50 »

I had a little jaunt on some of the Chiltern network yesterday, and by the looks of it their management are quite rightly concerned.

Here's what I personally experienced having decided to try out one of the Class 67 hauled 'Silver' trains from Marylebone amongst others:

1)  10:54 Bicester North to Marylebone

Formed off of a set which arrives at 10:45.  The decision to rebuild Bicester North Up Platform and not install a passing loop (as has been done at Princes Risborough) makes things difficult in this example, as the terminating train has to be checked empty, despatched to the turnaround siding before allowing the 09:55 Birmingham Moor Street to Marylebone pass through, after which it can return to the Up Platform to form the train.

The driver has to check the terminating train, and certainly didn't seem in much of a hurry yesterday.  By the time it crawled into the sidings the 09:55ex Moor Street was waiting at the signal outside.  After accelerating through, the set for the 10:54 crawled (and I mean crawled) from the siding into the platform.  Net result was a 4 minute late departure.  The driver also took the set all the way to the far end of the siding (despite only being a 2-car) which meant it took longer to get back into the station.  Not sure whether that's an instruction they follow, or just this driver's decision, but it didn't help.  Also the points leading into the siding are marked as 15mph, but the train was far slower than that in both directions - whether ATP (Automatic Train Protection) was preventing it from going faster, or the driver was just taking it steady I'm not sure.  Either way, that sort of sloppy working needs tightening up for this new timetable to stand a chance!

2)  Princes Risborough

A pleasant hour was spent watching trains at Risborough.  It was great to see the fast services running at full speed through the station - though all of them were running late.  There was also good use made of the new through loop with fast services passing stopping ones.  Although the facility to pass trains at High Wycombe remains, they will be doing it at Risborough wherever possible as it has less conflicts with other services.

3)  12:21 Princes Risborough to Marylebone


This had departed Banbury 4 minutes late and as I was watching it on my phone, lost more time en-route.  We eventually left Risborough 10 minutes late.  Even with a spirited run to London we only gained one minute back arriving 9 minutes late.  The driver blamed poor rail adhesion, which certainly might have contributed, but the tight schedule meant no real scope for recovery.  The fact it was a Class 165, restricted to 75mph, meant that the upgrade work had little effect on the speed the train could go, save for some short sections in the Northolt and Neasden Junction areas.

4)  13:37 Marlylebone to Birmingham Moor Street

A Class 67, and 5 shiny MK3's and a DVT(resolve) were sat in platform 1 Marylebone.  We left about 40% full and I settled in to a journey scheduled to take just 100 minutes stopping only at Banbury, Leamington Spa, Warwick Parkway, and Solihull.  We were 2 minutes late leaving after waiting a delayed train from Aylesbury to arrive into a conflicting platform.  Even with the extra platforms, Marylebone is very congested train wise.

After getting checked for the 60mph permanent speed restriction at High Wycombe and for a TSR (Temporary Speed Restriction) near Bicester we roared through Aynho Junction and arrived Banbury after just 54 minutes - an average speed of 78mph!  Moor Street was reached after 103 minutes an average of 65mph, though we had lost a further 3 minutes and arrived 5 minutes late.  This is worrying as, apart from two 50mph TSR's, there were no noticeable hold-ups throughout, apart from a slow arrival at Moor Street which could well be due to the fact that the train arrives at one of the new bay platforms and is therefore subject to approach control signals.  Station dwell times were at an absolute minumum for a slam door stock train.  Are these schedules just too tight?

5)  Other observations

Birmingham Moor Street's train announcer is still a manual one, and he decided to announce in a very chirpy voice.  Nothing wrong with that, until you realise that every time he said 'Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Birmingham Moor Street before' every announcement.  I must admit after a couple of minutes it got bloody irritating!  Contrast that with the excellent annoucements on board the 13:37 which could sadly hardly be heard due to the level of the speakers.  I was also unable to connect with the free wi-fi on board, but otherwise the trip was very impressive and an excellent advert for what train travel can offer.  The two new bay platforms at Moor Street look great and really add to the capacity at this station.

I then took a London Midland service to the Hawthorns (excellent on-train announcements spoilt this time due to a speaker that was far too loud - why can't we get it right!).  The Midland Metro platforms are right by the National Rail ones and I was struck by how passengers are encouraged to walk across the tracks in between the low platforms in between trams.  It's no wonder some people don't understand the dangers of tresspassing on the tracks when they are encouraged to do just that on metro tracks which look just the same to the untrained eye!

Through to Stratford-Upon-Avon from the Hawthorns as I wanted to take a look at the work that's been undertaken on that route over the last few years.  Much of the track has been replaced to give a nice smooth ride.  The line is now LED signalled throughout controlled from the West Midlands Signalling Centre at Saltley.  There were signs of ongoing platform extentions, as well as welcomed added capacity/speeds at Bearley Junction and Stratford-Upon-Avon.  At Stratford, the addition of a crossover means that trains can now arrive and terminate at all three platforms, rather than previously where they had to arrive on platform 1 and shunt over to 2/3 if needed to get out of the way.  An example of how a relatively simple and cheap fix can really add to capacity.

6)  17:40 Stratford-Upon-Avon to Marylebone.

Not much to say about this one.  Left on time and arrived at Banbury (where I left it) on time.  Then again this is one train that, bar two extra stops, runs in the same timings as it did before the Mainline timetable took effect.  Stratford ends up feeling very little benefit from the Mainline timetable sadly - no wonder the council there is not too impressed with Chiltern Railways according to credible rumour.

7)  Summary

Overall, I'm impressed, yet worried.  Very few of the trains I saw/travelled on yesterday were on time.  Occasional major disruption, like signal failures, are excusable.  Minor adjustments to the stopping patterns and train consists might mitigate many of the criticisms of overcrowding that have been made - not observed by me yesterday, but I was avoiding peak trains.  However, on a day like yesterday when there were no major problems most of the trains were still running 5-15 minutes late.  This is not a good sign.  Sure, drivers/signallers will get more familiar with the new schedules, speeds and so on, but I am concerned that Chiltern have simply been too optimistic about what they can achieve journey time wise.

The improved infrastructure still doesn't allow much flexibility operationally on what is basically a 2-track railway right from the throat of Marylebone station onwards.  Timings are very tight to say the least, there is hardly any apparent slack, so when a train gets late it will more often than not stay late.  Whilst FGW (First Great Western) have come under criticism for too much slack, have Chiltern gone too far the other way?

It is, as ChrisB says, laudable that their management has been very active and visible over the last few days.  Believe me, there will be a hell of a lot of investigation going on to work out what can be done to sort out the initial problems.  This is a big test for Chiltern and its management - with a massive timetable change like this there will always be some teething problems, but are they so bad that the timetable will have to be overhauled completely?  I fear it might, or Chiltern's predicted 2% drop in punctuality following Mainline might be more like a 20% drop!

As an example as to how bad things are, here's the performance of peak hour trains through High Wycombe this evening.  60 trains, only 9 arriving at their destination within the 5 minute charter threshold, one part cancellation and one full cancellation.  Worrying!

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Andy W
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« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2011, 10:10:18 »

Excellent post II, very interesting. Clearly some serious issues, hopefully they have the right focus and determination at the highest level to sort it all out.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2011, 14:33:08 »

Their Tweet the Manager was illuminating too - Bravely, the Chiltern Timetable guru took part for the best part of 90 minutes.....

They agree that there are problems, and also that they failed completely to manage adequately customer expectations. All these posters and marketing that persuaded everyone that their journey was going to get faster.....and those south of PRR (Princes Risborough) might find one train each peak with the saving that was advertised, but most there's little improvement, and some trains are actually slower owing to being overtaken.

That, and the general loss of a Metro-style  turn-up-&-go that HWY, BCF & GCR» (Gloucester - next trains) had, and now only get 4tph....meaning the station/platform gets busier, meaning queues at the ticket office, coffee huts and newsagents too.

Other than suggesting a full train count across all services Tues-Thu next week, and possible stock swaps to provide extra coaches on some services after due analysis of these loading figures, I didn't think he was that confident that they could cure their problem.....which worries me somewhat.

He didn't show that he understood that pax want to travel at a time that gets them to MYB (London (Marylebone)) at a certain time that will allow them enough time to get to work - so if they choose to travel at, say 0753, a train at 0810 taking the same time to get to MYB, is likely to arrive too late....if they need to arrive before 0830, then getting in afterwards is a non-starter. Likewiose they don't want to arrive earlier than 0820, or 0815 at a real push....

Same going home. taking heartlands as an example, pax want to leave MYB within say, 15 minutes max of getting there, and preferably 10 mins.

And Chiltern have to manage all that want to arive and depart MYB in each 15-minute slot. Whether that's by skip stopping, or putting on sufficient coaches to carry them all, is their choice - but manage them *all* they must - not try & suggest that some of them might travel in a different 15-minute slot!!!

It's that aspect that they just don't get, and therefore aren't yet trying to cure. THey think just moving stock around the services will cure their problem - it won't, because insufficient trains are now running in the high-peak! So moving stock around these services ios likely to just create the problem elsewhere - either on the Aylesbury line or Mainline, or just other stations in the heartlands.

There were some suggestions that they might re-introduce the old pre-mainLine TT - a suggestion that I've made too. It works, pax were happy with it. It would buy them time to fix the problem after properly modelling it...rather than trial & error...ok, based on counts (why weren't they done *before* developing the TT), but still no proper modelling.

Oh, you might think they see this as something *urgent* that needs immediate attention?....I gave him the opportunity to say days/weeks before the fixes, but he somewhat surprisingly said weeks & months before it would be properly fixed.

I think the suggestion about bringing in the old TT now holds even more weight. Pax will get increasingly restless as they see no changes after another 7 days of overcrowding....they just don't have *months* to get this right! I wonder whether the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) is watching yet?.....
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2011, 15:42:54 »

I think the suggestion about bringing in the old TT now holds even more weight. Pax will get increasingly restless as they see no changes after another 7 days of overcrowding....they just don't have *months* to get this right! I wonder whether the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) is watching yet?.....

I agree with you, Chris, that's something that should be seriously considered.  Shades of December 2006 with the 'c2c' franchise when a certain Mark Hopwood was in command: http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/latest_updates/news/morning_and_evening_weekday_peak_schedules_to_return_to_previous_patterns_as_c2c_restores_old_timetable

Mind you, a much better morning today - still an unacceptable number of trains late, but a far higher percentage making charter.  Their new blue-ribbon 'Up' service, the 06:55 Moor Street to Marylebone, which runs non-stop from Warwick Parkway actually made up 3 minutes after Warwick to only arrive Marylebone 3 minutes late - just 1h 07m for the trip equating to an average speed of 82mph.
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