Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 09:55 29 Mar 2024
* Bus plunges off South Africa bridge, killing 45
* Easter getaway begins with flood alerts in place
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber
27/09/25 - 200 years of passenger trains

On this day
29th Mar (1913)
Foundation of National Union or Railwaymen (*)

Train RunningCancelled
09:00 Gatwick Airport to Reading
09:46 Westbury to Swindon
09:54 Bedwyn to Newbury
10:22 Newbury to Bedwyn
10:55 Bedwyn to Newbury
11:05 Swindon to Westbury
11:29 Newbury to Bedwyn
11:57 Bedwyn to Newbury
12:17 Westbury to Swindon
12:52 Bedwyn to Newbury
13:15 Swindon to Westbury
14:19 Westbury to Swindon
15:14 Swindon to Westbury
16:23 Westbury to Swindon
17:36 Swindon to Westbury
18:37 Westbury to Swindon
20:13 Swindon to Westbury
21:16 Westbury to Swindon
22:30 Swindon to Westbury
Short Run
06:37 Plymouth to London Paddington
07:03 London Paddington to Paignton
08:35 Plymouth to London Paddington
09:30 Weymouth to Gloucester
09:37 London Paddington to Paignton
10:35 London Paddington to Exeter St Davids
Delayed
05:03 Penzance to London Paddington
06:05 Penzance to London Paddington
07:10 Penzance to London Paddington
08:03 London Paddington to Penzance
08:15 Penzance to London Paddington
09:04 London Paddington to Plymouth
09:45 Bristol Temple Meads to Salisbury
10:04 London Paddington to Penzance
11:03 London Paddington to Plymouth
PollsOpen and recent polls
Closed 2024-03-25 Easter Escape - to where?
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
March 29, 2024, 10:09:23 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[149] Infrastructure problems in Thames Valley causing disruption el...
[64] would you like your own LIVE train station departure board?
[59] West Wiltshire Bus Changes April 2024
[58] Reversing Beeching - bring heritage and freight lines into the...
[52] Return of the BRUTE?
[36] 2024 - Service update and amendment log, Swindon <-> Westbury...
 
News: A forum for passengers ... with input from rail professionals welcomed too
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 [4]
  Print  
Author Topic: Beeching cuts  (Read 25284 times)
34104
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 128


View Profile
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2011, 19:35:09 »

In 1963, the Southern and Western Regions did a survey of the competing routes to the South West of England and found that five times as many West Country passengers used the Paddington route to Exeter and beyond, and that, although the SR(resolve) route was shorter, the WR route was quicker. They also concluded that concentrating expresses on the SR route would either require a new spur at Exeter, or time wasting reversal of all Plymouth and Penzance trains at Exeter St Davids (no HSTs (High Speed Train) or DVTs(resolve) in 1963!). Focusing expresses on the Southern Route would also have resulted in a less attractive direct service from Taunton to London.

Given the arguments above and also that the Southern lines west of Salisbury were losing money heavily from the late 1950s (in 1957, these lines were failing to cover direct costs by ^800,000), the Western Region announced in February 1964 that the WR route would be the trunk route with the SR route restricted to serving a limited number of intermediate stations between Salisbury and Exeter. Over the next 3 years, the WR removed loss making branch lines (e.g. Axminster, Seaton, Sidmouth) and Salisbury - Exeter stopping services, and further cut costs in 1967 by singling the line, leaving the 2 hourly semi-fast service which ran in various iterations until December 2009.

You can argue in retrospect that the WR pruned the services too much, but the cost cutting made sense at the time, and their plan to focus on semi-fast services was, in my opinion, the right one for the long term survival of the line.

Why would there have been a need for reversal if trains started at Waterloo?

Trains travelling from Waterloo enter Exeter St Davids Station from the south whereas trains from Paddington enter the same station from the north. Therefore if Waterloo had been the principal terminus for the South West from 1964 onwards, trains entering St Davids would, if they were to continue to Plymouth and Penzance along the favoured GWR (Great Western Railway) route (rather than the SR's line via Okehampton to Plymouth), have had to have left St Davids from the same end of the station that they entered it. The argument was that this would have been time wasting as it would have required an engine change for every train going beyond Exeter (or at least detaching the engine from one end of the train and attaching it to the other end).  The same changes would have also been necessary for every Waterloo bound train.

Ah,right.I was assuming that the surveys went the whole hog as far as switching to the SR line was concerned and carried on from Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton/Tavistock.BTW (by the way),were those surveys ever published in any form? Frankly,i find it difficult to believe that the GWR route attracted 5 times as many passengers as the SR one back in the 1950's/1960's.
Logged
JayMac
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 18895



View Profile
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2011, 19:55:38 »

What has to be remembered is that many of the surveys carried out as part of the 'Reshaping of British Railways' were very narrow in their scope. At the time an integrated rail network was seen as anachronistic. Roads and the private car were seen as the future. Particularly when you remember that Dr B was hired by Minister of Transport Ernest Marples. Whilst Marples was required by parliamentary rules to divest of his interest in road building company Marples Ridgeway Ltd on becoming a Minister, lest it be seen he had a conflict of interests; he did so in a sneaky (but allowed) way: Selling his shares to his wife!

And we think today's politicians are nowt but a self serving bunch of .....*


*Insert your own noun as you see fit.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 20:05:59 by bignosemac » Logged

"Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for the rest of the day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

- Sir Terry Pratchett.
Chafford1
Full Member
***
Posts: 86


View Profile
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2011, 20:20:12 »

From Modern Railways, April 1964:

'The hardening of BR (British Rail(ways)) opinion in favour of retaining the Taunton - Newbury - Reading main line as the chief London - South-West express route has been influenced chiefly by two factors. The first is that five times as many passengers presently take Paddington trains for Exeter and beyond as do Waterloo departures; there is less danger of alienating public opinion by concentrating traffic on the ex-GWR (Great Western Railway) route. Secondly, cardinal importance is attached to highly competitive speed of service, which BR feel would be jeopardised if all expresses had to stop at both Exeter stations and reverse at St Davids. BR wisely have a long-term eye on the effects of future road developments on overall journey times'

Also from the same edition in relation to journey times:

'Also mentioned was the new daily business service to be introduced this summer linking Plymouth and Paddington in less than 4 hr.... This is the BR answer to the immediate threat of a Plymouth - London air service'


From Modern Railways, April 1967:

'The foundation for the decision to make the Westbury - Taunton line the principle route to the West was a costing exercise conducted jointly by the SR(resolve) and WR. The bulk of London - West Country passengers used the Paddington route to Exeter and made a bigger contribution to the total costs of running their expresses than did those between Salisbury and Exeter'

Given these articles were published 45 years ago, it would be difficult to verify their accuracy or otherwise. However, given the authors were presumably the Roger Fords of their day with close links to the rail industry, I would assume that there is a considerable element of truth in what they were writing. Unfortunately those involved in the original decisions would probably be in their 90s now, if they are still alive.
Logged
The Grecian
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 176


View Profile
« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2011, 20:26:30 »

I should also perhaps point out in fairness after my last post that Honiton and Gillingham, 2 of the busiest stations after Yeovil Junction today, were always poorly served in comparison to other stations before the regime change. Templecombe, Axminster and Sidmouth Junction were favoured as express stops due to their branch line connections. The 2 hourly service actually gave them an improved service compared to what went before.

The economies may have saved the line, but at the same time there would be increased maintenance of the remaining track due to an increase in the number of trains using it. It's a shame that well into the 1980s BR (British Rail(ways)) were constantly told by differing governments to make economies and that often meant singling lines which can create considerable delays - Burngullow - Probus was one (1986) until redoubling in 2004, Dorchester South-Moreton is one today that can cause problems as trains are scheduled virtually all day to meet not far west of Dorchester  and Cockett - Dyffyrn is another (the last two aren't really on FGW (First Great Western) territory apart from a handful of Carmarthen services but they are close by). That short-sightedness seems to have gone (for now anyway).
Logged
Chafford1
Full Member
***
Posts: 86


View Profile
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2011, 20:38:23 »

I should also perhaps point out in fairness after my last post that Honiton and Gillingham, 2 of the busiest stations after Yeovil Junction today, were always poorly served in comparison to other stations before the regime change. Templecombe, Axminster and Sidmouth Junction were favoured as express stops due to their branch line connections. The 2 hourly service actually gave them an improved service compared to what went before.

The economies may have saved the line, but at the same time there would be increased maintenance of the remaining track due to an increase in the number of trains using it. It's a shame that well into the 1980s BR (British Rail(ways)) were constantly told by differing governments to make economies and that often meant singling lines which can create considerable delays - Burngullow - Probus was one (1986) until redoubling in 2004, Dorchester South-Moreton is one today that can cause problems as trains are scheduled virtually all day to meet not far west of Dorchester  and Cockett - Dyffyrn is another (the last two aren't really on FGW (First Great Western) territory apart from a handful of Carmarthen services but they are close by). That short-sightedness seems to have gone (for now anyway).

You're right about the stopping patterns - Crewkerne had 3 direct trains from Waterloo from 7 September 1964 (none before that date) and Gillingham 5 direct trains from Waterloo from 7 September 1964 (only 1 before that date).

In terms of overall numbers of trains, the WR estimated that the 1967 service along the Salisbury-Exeter line represented 50% less passenger and parcels mileage and 40% less freight mileage than that operated in 1962.

Logged
34104
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 128


View Profile
« Reply #50 on: December 30, 2011, 13:26:24 »

From Modern Railways, April 1964:

'The hardening of BR (British Rail(ways)) opinion in favour of retaining the Taunton - Newbury - Reading main line as the chief London - South-West express route has been influenced chiefly by two factors. The first is that five times as many passengers presently take Paddington trains for Exeter and beyond as do Waterloo departures; there is less danger of alienating public opinion by concentrating traffic on the ex-GWR (Great Western Railway) route. Secondly, cardinal importance is attached to highly competitive speed of service, which BR feel would be jeopardised if all expresses had to stop at both Exeter stations and reverse at St Davids. BR wisely have a long-term eye on the effects of future road developments on overall journey times'

Also from the same edition in relation to journey times:

'Also mentioned was the new daily business service to be introduced this summer linking Plymouth and Paddington in less than 4 hr.... This is the BR answer to the immediate threat of a Plymouth - London air service'


From Modern Railways, April 1967:

'The foundation for the decision to make the Westbury - Taunton line the principle route to the West was a costing exercise conducted jointly by the SR(resolve) and WR. The bulk of London - West Country passengers used the Paddington route to Exeter and made a bigger contribution to the total costs of running their expresses than did those between Salisbury and Exeter'

Given these articles were published 45 years ago, it would be difficult to verify their accuracy or otherwise. However, given the authors were presumably the Roger Fords of their day with close links to the rail industry, I would assume that there is a considerable element of truth in what they were writing. Unfortunately those involved in the original decisions would probably be in their 90s now, if they are still alive.

They certainly overestimated the long term London-Plymouth air threat! Grin
Logged
smokey
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1129


View Profile
« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2012, 16:00:23 »

I'm sure I read somewhere that BR (British Rail(ways)) Southern had plans in the late 50's maybe early 60's that for the services to Exeter and West there off (talking the EX Southern routes here) that a Fleet of Hastings Line style DEMU (Diesel Electric Multiple Unit)'s were planned. Built to Normal (and Not Rip Off contractors Hastings line) body size.

That would have been interesting Thumpers to Bideford and Padstow.  Cheesy

Shame it never happened.
Logged
Chafford1
Full Member
***
Posts: 86


View Profile
« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2012, 20:33:34 »

I'm sure I read somewhere that BR (British Rail(ways)) Southern had plans in the late 50's maybe early 60's that for the services to Exeter and West there off (talking the EX Southern routes here) that a Fleet of Hastings Line style DEMU (Diesel Electric Multiple Unit)'s were planned. Built to Normal (and Not Rip Off contractors Hastings line) body size.

That would have been interesting Thumpers to Bideford and Padstow.  Cheesy

Shame it never happened.

That's interesting.  I've read that the SR(resolve) was already planning to cut the services West of Exeter before the WR took over in 1963 and that they put forward proposals for faster steam hauled Waterloo to Exeter Central services for 1963 - the fastest time would have been reduced to 2 hours 48 minutes. 
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 2 3 [4]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page