Great Western Coffee Shop

Yesterday (27th Feb), on the 17:28 Warminster-Great Malvern train a group of  5 or so teens (roughly 13-18) ran to the station over the footbridge and boarded at Warminster a few seconds before departure. Approaching Dilton Marsh the conductor arrived and asked for tickets, which they didn't have. All but one refused to buy tickets to Westbury (I heard them say, 'What excuse will we use this time?' before the conductor arrived.)

The conductor asked them to leave at Dilton Marsh, to which they refused and started shouting abuse. The conductor went to open the front doors at Dilton Marsh and have a word with the driver, soon arrived back talking into a phone. The kids twigged what he was doing so they left, still shouting abuse as they left the train. After leaving they continued to shout abuse and one of them started throwing stones/rocks at the conductor, one of which hit the train and the conductor then gave chase, but they ran away. We left about 8 minutes late.

I had a word with the conductor afterwards who said that they are a known group (who I've seen refuse to buy tickets myself on the same train, before) and there are some other known ones at Trowbridge. What was shocking was he said conductors get little support from the British Transport Police / RPIs, so what on earth can they do against stupid kids like that? Nothing, and the criminals know they have the upper hand. The conductor told me though that the driver took their photos, so hopefully the police may get involved.

This is verbal and physical abuse, not to mention repeated fare evasion and must stop.  People like that are a stain on the British rail system as we know it. Who knows how many other incidents of this nature happen daily? What I think would be a good idea is base BTP at Westbury as it's a major interchange, and they can deal with these evaders and put a stop to these crimes. Perhaps also issue trains with repeated offenders (like the 17:28 wmn-gmv) a BTP officer who can deal with them the next time they arrive. I tried ringing the BTP helpline myself last night but there was no answer, and after sending them an e-mail they said I should ring the helpline! Dear lord...

We have to deal with scum like that every day, and i'm sad to say that the incident you described is far from un common, another sad fact is that the guard can get into trouble for removing them at an unmanned station if the scum in question were under 18, theres no justice! I posted in another thread that there have been a number of RPI's recently appointed in Devonand Cornwall which suprisingly are two of the worst areas in the UK for fare evasion etc, and i've seen the RPI's out and about on late night trains lately and are doing a sterling job, one other sad fact is that the staff just see incidents like that as "part of the job" when NOBODY deserves to be subjected to that sort of abuse, and all credit to the guard on that train who stood his ground and removed the scum from the train and did not back down! As for the BTP, FGW ahev produced some "eye witness contact forms" which are worth carrying around with you to fill out and send to the BTP.

why delay all the other people on the train because of the fares of this group.

isnt it company policy not to delay trains over revenue issues ?

the cost to FGW in delay minutes is far more than the money lost by just taking these children to westbury.

doesnt fgw also have a policy on not detraining people at unmanned stations especially 'vunerable' groups such as children and women on their own.

'vulnerable' is proabably the last thing these lot were.

You can spot the Trowbridge kids at Bath Spa a mile away, unfortunately.  :-[ :-[

Can you, how's that then?

In no particular order...

extensive (colourful) vocabulary
accent
volume
'interesting' fashion sense. (Shires is a great place to shop)
Mmmm
and 9 times out of 10 I've guessed right.

The majority are ok, don't get me wrong, and I would hate to suggest all Trowbridge youngsters are are liable to make a guards life a misery, but it's not uncommon.

I do agree with most actually, being one myself.

It's never a good idea to make assumptions or indeed sweeping generalisations based on appearances. I've experienced it first-hand myself any number of times: I am fortunate enough that the nature of my job enables me to travel first class, but as I wear my hair longer than most and tend to look vaguely scruffy even when wearing a brand new suit (I don't know why this is, but my dear wife gave up trying to do anything about it years ago!), I very often experience the guard politely reminding me that "this is a First Class section, sir..." as I board the train.

There's a guy who looks a bit like a street person, carrying a number of supermarket bags stuffed with bits of paper, who regularly travels to London from Exeter on First Class - I don't recall his name, but apparently he's the founder of the JD Wetherspoon's chain. I  once saw him pay the full peak time First Class single rate from Paddington to Exeter in cash.

Never, ever go by appearances....

Part of me agrees with you then part of me doesn't, try it another way, why should everyone else pay and not them? there is also the matter of principal, would you tolerate shoplifters in the same way? it's no different! I've never had any problems from control for removing scumbags from the train (delays), and to be honest the first thing control usually want is a description so that they can page it out to other TM's/Conductors!

[quote author=Graz link=topic=1885.msg13810#msg13810 date=1204200 What I think would be a good idea is base BTP at Westbury as it's a major interchange, and they can deal with these evaders and put a stop to these crimes. Perhaps also issue trains with repeated offenders (like the 17:28 wmn-gmv) a BTP officer who can deal with them the next time they arrive. I tried ringing the BTP helpline myself last night but there was no answer, and after sending them an e-mail they said I should ring the helpline! Dear lord...
[/quote]

BTP used to be based at Westbury and had their own office in the subway opposite to ticket office....... withdrawn on financial grounds....... better deployed elsewhere?.... as it would make sense stategically due to Westbury being a junction, It Will Not Happen !

The local plods take too long to reply to some calls as well!

its the guards job to get the train safely from a to b. if you ask someone to buy a ticket and they point blank refuse you walk on and perform your duties to keep the train running to its destination in a timely fashion. accepting that you cant drag people off the train or make them pay whats the point in esculating a situation by being principled. those kids would not have thrown rocks and stuff at the train and the train wouldnt have been delayed by 8 minutes if the guard had not decided to take issue with their ticketless travel, which, with it being a short journey and child fares cant have been worth more than a few quid in total for the whole group.

yes its frustrating when people take the p**s but its not your money, its FGW's loss. If they cant be arsed to put systems and support in place for the guard to deal with sitautions like this effectively then thats their look out and loss not the guards.

I see what your saying, but, if safety is the issue then those chavs are not insured to be on the train as they do not hold a valid ticket, also, it may not be the guards money but why should the other passengers who have paid be subsidising scum like that, if the guard had not acted in that way then anyone watching would think they can do it and get away with it.

Of course if guards and drivers actually do anything, this could be the result.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/6962972.stm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=476707&in_page_id=1770&ito=1490

Several years ago, when I worked suburban commuter trains, I got in a scrap with a youth who thought it would be fair to threaten another passenger after they told them to put a spliff out, then try and force his way into the driving cab to nick my phone when he realised that I was arranging for the plod to meet the train.

Despite the fact that when he was nicked he gave the police a load of mouth, and then a false name and address, I was taken off duty, and questioned at length as to why I used force to remove him from the driving cab. The company's attitude was 'Is there a better way you could have dealt with that situation?'. Short of either 1) leaving my passengers to fend for themselves (a no no) or 2) battering him round the head repeatedly, I couldn't think of anything. It's worth noting that neither could the company.

I later found out this particular piece of vermin was on bail for robbery.

Presumably we are supposed to let them go and sit in first, chat to them about their disaffection with society and get the passengers to contribute a whip round so that we can pay them a tidy sum, if they promise to abide by some 'behavioural contract'.

The really scary thing is, the more of these idiots I encounter, the more I find myself in agreement with the Daily Mail!

Edited for accuracy ^^^^

When I was younger I lived there for 10 years and in my opinion the vast majority of residents of Trowbridge are (snip). Obviously there are a few good people there who are let down by the rest but I think the whole country would be better off if this blot was removed from the landscape of this green and pleasant land.


With any luck I'll eventually be in your position Phil! I have long dreadlocks and tend to look vaguely scruffy but I have a professional occupation so I look forward to having my ticket double checked in 1st (when I climb a couple more rungs of the ladder)! Another example of this happening is probably Mookiemoo's thread where the guard asked her to prove she belonged in that particular section.




(Reason for (snip) edits: complaints received over references to inhabitants)

I've had to intercept against abusive kids on the trains who refuse to pay for tickets or treat the guards like a joke. The running practice is now to ignore the guard and wait for him to go away.

Sadly it works well because the guard doesn't always have time to deal with this "kids". Sometimes its gotten to the point where the guards been attacked, to which I've had to intercept because I can't stand to see someone who's doing his job be attacked.

There's nothing more satifising then throwing a kid off a train at Hilsea, knowing the next train isnt for another 30 minutes  ;D

You just have to accept we live in a country that has lost it's self-respect - or at least, if Newton Abbot is anything to go by anyway.  The parents don't care, the kids don't care, no-one cares anymore.

Personally, I'd like to see this government grow a spine and start doing something about the very sad disintergration of families but I suspect things will get worse before they get better.

Why does the government have to grow a spine in order to deal with this? Shouldn't the parents be doing more to sort this out, smacking their kids and teaching them right from wrong, why don't they spend more time with them rather then stuffing them in front of a TV?

Surely people will start bleeting the moment the government steps in and starts making sure these little thugs don't have little little thugs at 14 or so? Seems like a no win scenario to me  :-\

I agree that the parents are ultimately responsible for a child's behaviour and well being but (and this is all my opinion before anyone gets upset) I believe that years of ridiculous decisions by government have eroded any sense of family in this country.  I live on a council estate and I see first hand the sorts of families who don't work, don't care and still manage to have everything under the sun - cars, holidays and televisions.  There are plenty of people who have genuinely fallen on bad times and they need help, but there are lots and lots of people who need a shake up and realise that life doesn't owe them anything.

You are right in that one of the missing parts is the parents interacting with their children - we regularly have 2-3 extra 6/7 year olds round our house who call to see our children - they are just kicked out of their house on a Saturday morning and that's their lives.  We let them play in our garden as it seems better they are there then out on the streets.  The crazy thing is, the parents just don't know where they are.  The poor children have no boundaries so you imagine what they are going to grow up into - yes, the sort of young adults who have no sense of society or respect.

However, I don't agree with your comment about smacking children - in my experience, smacking children achieves very little.

Having been to Trowbridge a number of time i'd say there were many places within Torbay which should first be taken off the map.

It didn't look a particularly rich area but whats the need when you have a massive Asda  :D

Blimey! Well, I haven't really been round Torbay, so couldn't comment.


Really, you wanna see our Tesco - you supermarket 'ned'

I got a call from the BTP chief from BTM today - will report directly to him if I see those brats - or as he called them 'spotty little herberts' again! ;)

I wish more people were like you Graz! a conductor got assaulted recently in Cornwall on a busy commuter train, OK, it wasn't serious, and not particularly physical, but it's still totally unacceptable, funny thing was, out of a full and standing 150 nobody saw a thing! The guard went sick, and the rest of the trains for the day on that branch were cancelled and i'll bet the people who didn't see anything were the first to moan about the train being canned!

I have on more than 1 time seen a bunch of 'undesirables' get in a unit, and see the guard go to ching them. On more than 1 time if they have been up there a while I quickly nip up the coach to check there not getting any problems.

Smacking children instills that the actions they've just taken were wrong. It worked well for myself and my sibling, neither of us have broken the law.

But anyway, point being people need to stop being abusive to each other and start being decent.

Aw thanks vacman ;D It's so unfourtunate there are people like that around- rightfully labelled scum of the earth, in my opinion. They have no right to be going on the trains if they have no intention of paying and abuse the conductor verbally or otherwise. I can't comprehend why someone didn't report anything about the incident in Cornwall- I'm sure any one of us here at the Coffeeshop would have reported it without a second thought.
Jim- have you ever reported anything to the BTP?

No. I have given 2 witness statments though.

Jim, well done, and thanks!

It's good to see such positive action being taken, by some of the younger members of society.  ;)


Part of the problem there, Jim, is that the 'local' plods have limited powers on railway property: that's why you need BTP officers on the ground.

I have reported certain issues to uniformed BTP officers at BTM over the years - and they've been suitably grateful for the info, and they have promptly gone off to 'deal with it'! ;D

Thats the problem. Our nearest BTP plods are Bristol! No use calling them for an emergancy incident on a train is it!

The ones in Pompey were fast asleep when I called them about a "nice" bloke who was beating up his missus x.x

I'll leave the philosophising about what is wrong with (some of) our youth to others, but the staff on the train ought to be given all the support they need when they get problems from yobs. 

Noone, be they rail staff, coppers or ordinary members of the public ought to worry that legal action might be taken against them if they challenge illegal behaviour.   It is one thing saying that you can't thow under 18s off the train at an unstaffed station for not having a tciket, but once they are threatening or violent, they ought to forfit any protection from this policy.

the Police are never there when you need it so we need to live in a society where decent people feel that they can challenge bad behaviour. 

Yes, we *should* be living in a society which challenges bad behaviour, but sadly, it's not the case.  People are frightened to get involved, frightened of legal action and of getting hurt (as the media make us believe that all youths carry knives).  I got attacked by three youths when I was a student many years ago on Plymouth Hoe during the DAY, did anyone help?   No.  People go to prison for hurting or defending themselves against criminals - so it comes back to the government to start moving away from crazy policies and actual base the legal system on common sense again.

It's more than time some of the Scum, and it's only a very small number of youths or even old gits who seem to think they are the centre of the universe were taught a short sharp shock.

Ok the first time someone gets in trouble let the Social Workers do their stuff, and try and sort them out,
Second time in trouble send them on National Service for two years, 12 months as cannon fodder in the Far  East would sort them out.

I know that the Police had problems with 2 young BRATS who were always in Trouble, almost to the point that they had there own seats in the Dock, but when they turned 16, both off 'em were sent inside (and off the streets) for 3 months.
Reported Crimes in the Town fell by 90%

Best cure I know off, Little ******* of 11, a real One boy crime wave, was out in the street about 1am, van pulls up 4 or 5 masked men took the Brat for a Ride, and gave him a warning ANYMORE trouble and YOU will just disappear never to be seem again.
That's a very fast cure!

I know that the majority of us have strong views which deplore the actions of a small minority of antisocial people - but don't let's watch our language and the words we choose.  After previous requests for clarification, I've put up a thread in the last couple of days which you might want to look over if you're not read it yet:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1920.0

While I don't agree with the method, the result was a good one. It's a shame that children are allowed to grow up into the yobs/thugs/people who seem to think for only themselves and not about the results of their actions on others. Those of that mindset are a dieing breed in today's society and it's a damned shame. I truely hope we re-think some of things within our justice system, our police force and some of the stupid EU laws that we're forced to follow.

You are totally right, Britain is now a very insular place - and it's a sad spiral.  Most people seem to be only out for themselves and I am so fed up with my neighbours doing stuff that directly effects us without thinking to ask or mention anything (noisy parrots right next to our house, trampolines that overlook our garden, inconsiderate parking...) that I am slowly turning into them.

In my experience, the police are ineffective - we have a nightmare family near us, moved to Newton Abbot from Torquay because they caused too many problems there.  The young lad got a mini motorbike and started driving it up and down the pavements outside our house (at about 30 mph).  Stupidly dangerous and a serious threat to my family and anyone else using the pavement.  I phoned the police and was told that they were "dealing with it" - I pointed out that they should remove the bike before someone gets mowed down but was told again "we are dealing with it".  Several weeks passed and nothing happened (I even filmed the kid whizzing passed us on his bike but the police weren't interested), in the end one of the other neighbours got so fed up with it he went round and smashed the bike to pieces.  Problem solved, unfortunately, now he's up in court - personally, I think he should have been given a ^100 as a "citizen reward".

I come back to my original point, the authorities say they want normal people to help police our streets but there's no incentive and people are unsure of where they stand and have little faith in the police to back them up anymore.  You only had to watch the news last night to here the latest on the lad who was killed by two yobs when he confronted them after they threw rubbish into his car.

There is no fear of the police force, I was nearly killed for my mobile phone by a lad no older then myself at the time, I managed to get away and still with my mobile phone but was so shaken up that I collapsed in the police station. He got 13 months for attempted robbery with a dangerous weapon and two further counts of robbery of others he had done it to.

He got out 6 months later, on the same day as my birthday. I have a lot less faith in the justice and police system since.

I am sorry to hear that story, I know what it's like to be set on and it's deeply unpleasant and un-nerving and I'm also disgusted to hear that they got out early, I never understand that - sorry, you get 13 months, you do 13 months.  Prison shouldn't be easy - it should be horrible.  It's punishement.  If you hurt someone, or kill someone or rape someone, you give up your human rights as you were quick enough to take them from someone else.  I have very strong views on this, and they are mostly generated by my despair at the direction our society is going in.

Whats even more disgusting is that they "demand" access to the Internet, Colour TV's etc. I'm all for prison reform, but when you break the law, you loose the right to the nice things in life while your inside. Once your out, you make amends and you sort it out. Heck inside if you haven't any qualifications, they can help you get useful skills on the outside. I've a friend who's a reformed prisoneer and he says it was the best thing that happened to him, he now runs his own business in plumbing up in my old stomping grounds.

But back to the main point, we need more guards, more security and better protection for users of the transport network and the employees on it. The abuse of any of them has to be stopped.

I don't blame the police, I think their hands are tied, it's the muppets in government!

This might be one solution

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7266624.stm

Background link.
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=1690.msg11404#msg11404

Hee hee, yes I read that just now and this sprung to mind right away  ;D