Great Western Coffee Shop

The subject "Fare Evasion" has been removed from this board.  This is an interim measure at the moment.

In spite of requests from several moderators, certain member(s) who should know better about following the rules continued to post personal attacks ... and that has obliged me step in.

The whole fare system is over-complex and is difficult to understand, and whilst wholeheartedly agreeing that fare evaders should face appropriate actions and penalties, I find the assumption by certain staff that people are guilty until they prove themselves innocent to be unfortunate to say the least.  Where a suspected transgression is so marginal that the staff themselves can't agree on the validity of it, with some cheerfully selling tickets that others say aren't valid, my support is 100% with the passenger.  And that doesn't mean I'm coming down against the staff - I'm coming down against the system, and the attitude it breeds in some.

Us passengers aren't (and cannot) be as thoroughly informed as to what is and isn't valid in an overly complex system, and we all learn things every day.   I was shocked to read (different thread, same topic) the other day "The official line is that unless the journey started at an unmanned station with not working ticket machine then it is an offence to board a train without a ticket ..." Ouch. I live near an unmanned station that doesn't have a ticket machine at all, and I now learn that it is an offence to board a train there unless I have a ticket (how? no-one in the town sells them!).

I suspect that the person who posted this gem mis-stated the rule and (s)he should have written "The official line is that unless the journey started at an unmanned station where there is no working ticket machine then it is an offence to board a train without a ticket ..." but I tell you ... next time I'm catching a train I'll ask the conductor if I can buy on board BEFORE I step onto the train.

Is the rule as was stated by the original poster?  Or is this a case of that original poster - a staff member - getting in wrong?  If the rule is correct, I have unknowingly been breaking the rules for years and have never been stopped over it ... and if the statement as originally made is incorrect and when the staff don't get it right, what chance have the customers?

The rule is simple: you must buy a ticket at your starting station if you are able to do so, from a ticket office if it is open, or a TVM if it is working. If neither is the case (or if there are signs saying "Pay on the Train") then you are OK to board without a ticket.

The rule dates from a very early railway statute, I believe, and is used as the basis for penalty fare regulations.

The point that Graham is making here though is that neither case is applicable at his local station: there is no ticket office, nor is there a vending machine of any description (working or otherwise) - and never has been. It's sadly not that "simple" at all.

Then he is unable to buy a ticket at his station and may board without a ticket - which is what I thought I had said!

Thanks, Phil, and Oxman. ;)

From the official National Rail website, the actual wording (http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/terms-and-conditions) they use is:


and

You did indeed, and Chris has confirmed that from the National Rail website.   However, an employee of FGW who (as I understand it) is involved in ticket checks tells us "The official line is that unless the journey started at an unmanned station with not working ticket machine then it is an offence to board a train without a ticket ..." which says that you can only board without a ticket if the station is unmanned AND if there's a non-working ticket machine there.

I strongly suspect that this employee of FGW has it wrong.  However, as he has also stated here that he starts off with the assumption that everyone is trying to avoid payment, and that on certain trains 99% of people in First Class are trying to travel in there when they should not, I think it wise to check with the conductor before I board the train in future [[I can't recall there being a "please pay onthe train" sign]]. And that is even if it means delaying it for a few seconds (or a minute or two if this guy is the conductor and proceeds to sell me the ticket before I board).

As Phil says, the situation is not a simple one.  At the same station, we have had cases of rail replacement road services refusing to take unticketed passengers;  it would be really much more in everyone's interest for them to install a ticket machine and provide sufficient services for the ticket machine to be well used and justify its cost.

its quite simple really, if you board at a station where ticket selling facilities were made available and were in working order (as with TVM's) without a ticket then you should expect to pay the full undiscounted single or return fare (National Conditions of Carriage condition 7 if I recall correctly) and not be entitled to any railcard or other discounts.

if you board at a station where the ticket office is closed, or there is no ticket office and there is no TVM or the TVM is not working or if there is a sign saying 'Pay On The Train' then you should be sold the full range of walk on fares applicable to the journey you wish to make including being able to use a railcard if its valid to discount the ticket you want.

I know a lot of Train Managers when selling tickets on board if asked for a ticket where a customer has started their journey at a station with a ticket office or a TVM in working order will ask "is there a reason you were unable to purchase a ticket before you joined the train" - listen to the answer and then decide if it is appropriate to sell the cheapest ticket available as if it had been bought before boarding or a full price non discounted ticket.

I guess it all depends on the answer given.....no effort made, attempting to walk past to the buffet or toilet and then asking for a ticket when asked, clearly pretending to be asleep etc etc probably isnt going to get you the cheapest journey.

Coming up to the TM or Conductor on the platform or seeking them out will get you far. Or if you were delayed on another train or there was a que at the ticket office (rule of thumb - say 10 people join at Chippenham, 9 have tickets 1 doesnt then there prob wasnt a que.....9 without and one with, all saying "there was a que" then there probably was) then you should be fine.

Basically its down to the TM as to what and how much discrection should be shown. Discrection is a personal thing and its not for a customer / passanger / traveller to dictate or decide what or if discrection should be shown. However, the hard and fast rule is NCOC's state, board at a station where you had an opportunity to buy then expect to pay full fare with no discount.

I think the matter is confused by the fact that many TM's adopt an attitude that directly contradicts the rules. Often I hear HSS (and local) TM's on the run in to Bristol apologising for the fact that they have not been able to get down the train and sell tickets for some reason, and the fact that passengers will have to buy them at the barrier at TM and probably queue. Sometimes they are quite specific "Apologies to passengers at Nailsea and Yatton, who I've not been able to get to..."

Now, why would they apologise if everyone should have bought a ticket before boarding? With the possible exception of Weston Milton I suspect every station from Nailsea southwards in Somerset has some sort of ticketing facilities. This behaviour reinforces passengers' attitude that it is OK to board without a ticket because they can get one on the train, (as well as the obvious fact that day in, day out, people do still board and get sold a ticket without being told that they should have bought one before boarding. (Not everyone reads the back of tickets, and I have to say, on commuter services into Bristol, I've never heard a train manager ask why a ticket wasn't bought at the station .)           

TMs get commision on tickets I believe!

I know from a conversation I had - one lot do and the other lot dont - I cant remember whether its TM or Conductors that do or dont!

FGW Conductors yes above a certain level, TMs no.  XC TMs do on everything as far as I know.

I agree. There are posters saying: "if your board without a ticket, then you'll pay a ^20 fine."

Then I see a guard selling a ticket to a destination FROM WORCESTER - which has both a ticket office and a machine. No questions asked. No "why didn't you buy one at the station." And while this passenger is wasting the guard's time buying a ticket (a process which seems to take ages on those portable machines), I wonder how many passengers further down the train will not get asked; the experienced dodgers getting off at the next stop, who are at the front.

All this would be stopped by the installation of ticket barriers at major stations like Worcester, reducing the number of people who need to buy after boarding. Then the guard will not have his/her time wasted selling tickets from Worcester people, but checking the whole train between each stop to make sure they ask all the people from smaller stations like Pershore.

Barriers at Slough didnt stop me on friday getting on without a ticket for thr journey I was taking - but of course your point is moot since I couldnt find the TM anyway - not sure what would have happened had there been an incident that needed attention but did not warrent the alarm.

Hmm. Do I take it that doesn't include donkey guards, then?  ;D

Welcome to the forum, anyway, Donkey Guard!  ;)

They all get the same - its not based on personal takings.

That IS clear to me.

It's the opposite case that's in question - I had always understood that it was acceptable / legal for me to join a train at a station where there was no manned ticket office, and no ticket machine, then buy a ticket on the train at the earliest possible opportunity.  However, we have now been told by an FGW employee on this forum that the official line is that it's an offense to join a train without a ticket anywhere except at a station which is not manned and which also has a ticket machine that is not working. This is somewhat of a surprise to me ... but only somewhat of a surprise, as road replacement services have refused to pick up unticketed people on (rare) occasions in the past.

I remain unclear, since the post of the official line here the other day, as to whether I may (still / could I ever?) legitimately board a train or replacement bus or taxi at a station with no staff and no ticket machine, without a ticket, then pay on the train / bus / taxi, or collect your prepaid, advanced purchase ticket that starts there from the conductor.

The Railway Byelaws are the actual current legal rules covering ticketless travel. I believe they are less ambiguous than anything else referred to so far, such as CofC or some railcard T&C.  The only odd thing about them seems to be that the rules in 'Compulsory Ticket areas' come before the 'normal rules' IYSWIM, and of course Penalty fares are covered elsewhere and are additional to the byelaws:


Paul

I was going to let this pass but I do feel I have to explain what I was getting at. What you actually said was, and I quote,


- and the point I was trying to make was that this only describes two out of the three possible scenarios: a ticket office if it is open or a TVM if it is working. What you didn't mention specifically are stations where no TVM has ever been installed, a fact which has been brought out by subsequent posts as it happens, though as I say I just wanted to clarify what I was getting at. Sorry.

Is Donkey Guard not SDA?

so am i correct in thinking that the best way of doing it is to consult the guard before getting on the train

In theory yes Relex. But as i've mentioned in previous threads, if I join a train without a ticket to travel, I will personally hunt down the TM and buy a ticket, even if it means tapping on the door of no return...! :D ;D :P ;)

Generally, If you find a TM to buy ticket, they are happy to sell you one. It shows that you want to pay the fare, not (as SWT would say) "Blagging it to Basingstoke" ;D

i did the same i was running late at digby and didnt have time for the machine but as soon as i borded i went and found the guard who lets be honest would have been able to issue a penalty fair if he saw fit but as i went and found him he sold me a ticket

When it comes to buying tickets before boarding I take a simple view.
If you can buy a ticket do or risk being charged the full price fare.
If you can't buy a ticket, get on and take a seat, it is then the railways duty to sell you the ticket on board or I'll buy it at my destination.

thats another mad thing when i went to cardiff last week the exeter to taunton leg was online for ^8.80 but onboard i paid 6.90

Yes  ;D but as we had one user named 'Guard' I thought I better pick something else!

Chris:  Conductors have to take a certain level of sales before they start earning commission.

Does a "Donkey" Guard even count as a promotion  :D

Oh, who am I kidding, they are wonderful contraptions!  :P

Payroll says yes so i'm happy  :D... and yes you love them.... best beasts on the rails  ;D

they are actually quite comfortable if you stand up lol

The conductor is just appologising for not selling them tickets, nothing there says that he/she would not have charged them the full fare! I agree with most of you though, it annoys me when some people always sell passengers the cheap discounted tickets "no questions asked" as it's not fair on the people that do bother to queue up and buy tickets and its not fair on their "colleagues" that do their job properly and charge the full fare, what ilovetrains posted is exactly right, ask why they don't have a ticket then base your decision on their answer and their actions, generally i'm quite strict but even I use discretion, the other day a bloke joined at a quite major manned station but he wnet down to the TGS, I wasn't there, then up to the buffet to find me to buy a ticket, quite out of breath by this time, I did sell him a cheapy ticket with R/C discount but nevertheless informed him of the official line. had he just sat down and I find him then he would have had an SDR with no discount!

By seeking out staff in my opinion it shows that you know and accept the rules and realise you are breaking them and you want to pay your fare. By sitting down it makes it seem like you are attempting to avoid the rules, hoping you won't get your ticket checked. I think in the case of a genuine reason for boarding without a ticket seeking out staff is the best advice. Not that I am staff, just based on observation and personal experience.

But they sell the normal ticket.

Which is what I've always done - on Friday I was the breathless person having run the length and breadth of the train unfortunately for me it was a 2+7 and no buffet - but I met a nice guard. 

Ok, I had  CDR - full first class fir, no YP discount as I was at Slough in plenty of time to get ticket.  Got the 1732 - had to make a wee trip to Gloucester road so intended to get the 1922 home - which I did.  Saw the incoming OXF train arrive on its booked platform on Plat 3 so I thought, great - trains here.  Went to McD's (didnt get a chance to get lunch - was hungry - am ashamed) bought dinner - intention - get on train, chow down, settle down to work.

Except - at 1902 the ticket wouldnt let me through the barrier. Explained to gate staff I was going to Worcester - showed them my season, explained it left at 1922 so ticket was valid - no joy.  REfused to let me through the barrier because the train wasnt "announced"  - I knew and they knew it was the train.  The cleaning crew were leaving.

Dilemma - McD's getting cold - refuse to eat cold McD's and refuse to eat it with bags hanging off me on a platform!  Choice - go to ticket machine - buy an any time single to get through the barrier or let dinner go cold.

Jobsworth was not going to back down - FGW got an extra 7.90 out of me.  McD's was revolting - but less revolting than cold McD's.

So - were the barrier staff being jobsworths or not? 

I say yes.

Couple of days ago had a lady with large suitcase getting on my train to oxford.  Asked her where she was going. Plymouth she replied.  Appartnly someone it info had told her.  Well there had been a change of coaches at the last minute which can happen.  If I had not seen her  she would have missed her train to plymouth.

So no the barrier staff are not being jobsworths.

Have you ever considered that just because someone says something other than what you are expecting or says no to you that they might just be following the instructions they have been given by their employer? Bit unfair calling people jobsworths without knowing why people do things isnt it?

That set of rolling stock may NORMALLY form the 1922 but how do you know that it wasnt intended for a different service. This can happen for lots of different reasons.

If you had just had let through and they had stepped up that set for another service and you had left early on it or missed your train because it was leaving from a different platform you would then be complaining that the man on the barriers shouldnt have let you through or that he should have come down to the train personally and told you that things had changed.

Why dont you wait like 99.9999999999% of the other customers who wait until the train is anounced and then board.

"That set of rolling stock may NORMALLY form the 1922 but how do you know that it wasnt intended for a different service. " The Hereford stickers were already in the window


"If you had just had let through and they had stepped up that set for another service and you had left early on it or missed your train because it was leaving from a different platform you would then be complaining that the man on the barriers shouldnt have let you through or that he should have come down to the train personally and told you that things had changed. "  No - my own stupid fault


"Why dont you wait like 99.9999999999% of the other customers who wait until the train is anounced and then board."  Most regular commuters at Paddington do the same - its just they have seasons etc and not poxy add on tickets because they were picking up something in London.

A train being labelled up still doesn't mean it will go there, some changes can literally be last minute.

Yes it can - but 99% of the time it doesnt - I'll play the odds

And yes - it can make a considerable difference - I (and others) are well settled in etc by the time the charge of the light brigade starts (especially on the earlier trains)

Andy yes, it did go wrong on me about 18 months ago - I ended up having to get off at Reading and wait for the train after the one I was intending to get!  But for all the times it works in my favour,  its a risk worth taking.

And FGW got an extra 7.90 off me in the process

yyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwnnnn

Hhmmm.  I don't agree.

Getting to Paddington perhaps 20 to 30 minutes before your train is due to leave, waiting on the concourse and balancing the food and drink you may have bought together with your normal luggage on a seat (if you're lucky) or standing and holing it,at Paddington for your platform to be announced, tired after a long meeting in town, is an unpleasant experience.  Then the unholy rush ("survival of the fittest") to get some of the few unreserved seats ... what a horrid way to start your journey home.

We're a nation of non-complainers.  And regular travellers want to remain on good terms with the staff they'll see time and again, and will tend to put up with even more - they'll get to know tricks to make the best of the system rather that say "this system sucks" which - in my view - it does.  I know that (personally) if can get to a starting perhaps quarter of an hour before my train is due to depart, get seated, read / snooze / work as the train fills up around me, I'll be far happier in my journey than if I had been through the Paddington Mill - and that will reflect on how I react to the employees of the company that gave me the nice experience, or put me through the ringer. It really would be in customer service interests to take a look at this, or at the very least explain why the current system cannot be improved

Are any answers available to the following?  Or any guesses?

How long before it leaves Paddington is the average train's platform announced? Are there any targets for this time, and if so are they met? By the time a platform is annoounced, how many people (on average) are in the station waiting to board?

Have people been asked / surveyed as to whether they like the current system?  If so, what did they say, and if people said they would like changes, have their requests been acted on?

One thing that always gets on my nerves is that the last train from PAD to OXF (departing at 0021) always seems to depart from platform 13, an almost endless walk from the concourse through the rabbit warren that is the Thames Valley side of the station, whilst the main train shed is empty.

Can anyone enlighten as to why? The times I have caught it there has been no obvious engineering work, so I don't understand why that service could not leave from one of the platforms in the main trainshed that is a bit closer to the concourse! It's clearly not just a "screw the customer" attitude because by contrast late-night trains arriving in Oxford tend to terminate in platform 1 rather than 2, meaning that you don't have to cross the footbridge and have a much shorter walk to the exit (which is a good thing!).

Although to be fair, the late night terminators at Oxford use the up platform so that they have a simple shunt movement into Rewley Road sidings. It just happens to be convenient for passengers, station staff and drivers!

No idea why it should be platform 13 at Paddington though.

ahhh I see. If the Hereford window stickers are on the windows then it wont ever be changed - sorry, makes sense now.

I agree with Mookiemoo and Grahame on this one.. my experience at Paddington is that my train in the platform was always at least a quarter full before the platform was announced (the next slightly less brave quarter of people were standing as close to the barriers to the platform as they could get).. Those that chose to assume it would go from the same platform as always, also chose to risk being on the wrong train.. Much better than the sprint to the train when it was finally announced... :)

I set up a topic quite a while ago now about platforms 13 and 14 and their excessive use when other platforms were empty and got rather shot down in flames over it.. Apparently we should all arrive at Paddington ages before our train is due so that it doesn't matter if we have to walk miles to get to it..  :)

I'll find my topic a bit later and post a link here for completeness... as it always concerns me to see the less abled people struggling to get to a train that they thought they had left loads of time to catch at Paddington, when in fact they hadn't, as it's practically parked at Royal Oak station!  ;D

A nation of non-complainers? you should be a comedien grahame!!! ;) Try working on the railway for a week and you'll soon change that opinion!

While I understand Grahame's point about Paddington and the rush when the train is announced/displayed, the non-complainer line did make me smile  :D

and here is the thing - I specifically asked for the diagram workings - so not only does there have to be a change of platform but a complete change of set working.

again - I know this happens - usually due to train failure or something getting stuck somewhere - I am not thick or stupid by any means. 

however, the chances of both a platform change and a diagram change?

Go on - how many times out of 10 does it happen?  Honestly?  I can happen, and whilst I am quick to complain I am also quick to accept responsibility for my own doings.  I was doing the same long before I found here (learning as much as I could to improve my odds of a good journey) - I just didnt know abotu diagrams such like - so I have ried to educate myself to improve my odds. 

Question to the detractors - how many times does an incoming diagram for a hereford service get swapped so last minute the stickers are in the window when it happens?

I await an answer but suspect I wont get one

Many of the lower numbered platforms are occupied by terminating HST trains slightly earlier in the night.  It may also depend when the stock actually arrives in Paddington as to what platfroms are available at that time.  It may arrive quite a bit earlier when more platforms are occupied.

Going back to the previous post about trains on the relief lines terminating at the high numbered platforms.  

1.  The left hand side of the station (platforms 11 - 14) is the same side as the slow lines out of paddington.  Using these cuts down on conflicting moves during the day

2.  There may occasionally be lower numbered platforms available.  However if there are any spares during the day they need to be kept free in case there is a problem with an HST or  Heathrow.  These trains cannot go into the higher numbered platforms.  It is no good if platform 14 is free and a 3 car turbo is on platform 8.  Shorter trains will always be put into shorter platforms

all this is just fine.. but I do think for platforms 13 and 14 that they need to advertise the time that you need to be through the ticket barrier (or some such system)... And make sure they police that... So if you are through you can get the train even if you are a bit slower than other people..

 Nearly every time I have travelled from these platforms, I have seen elderly or less abled people looking paniced attempting to hurry to the train that is quite a lot further away than they thought it would be... Some of them also then end up missing the train and having the long walk back to the concourse to see if they need to then do the same thing for the next train or not..

Also quite often platforms 9, 10, 11 and 12 (or some of them) are empty whilst people are rushing for platform 13 or 14...

to be honest I think a lot of it is the way you seem to think that people just go out of their way to upset you or be difficult towards you. You call them jobsworths. I call them people who are doing the job the way they are instructed to do it. Now you might not agree, or understand why or think you could do a better job or manage the process better but its just your premiss that your way is the right way that rubs.

Do you consider that for every person like yourself who will go thru with an off peak ticket before the time it is valid and mean what they say when they state "dont worry I am not going to travel earlier than allowed, I am going to sit on the empty train and await its departure" there are many many many more who will attempt to go thru and use just that reason as an exscuse to go past the gateline staff and wander off on their merry way onto a peak train with an off peak ticket, maybe on an adjacent platform.

Guess what those people will say to the TM or Senior Conductor when challanged about their ticket being invalid - yes that well used phrase "the man let me through" etc etc etc

There are usually good reasons why rules and restrictions exist, the man was quite right to prevent you coming through with an off peak ticket before the peak time restriction lifted.....you might not like it or agree with it or want to sit down and eat or ensure you get a seat before the rush......but he isnt wrong for doing his job correctly.

Just out of interest.. do you happen to know how long before the peak time restriction is lifted that people are actually allowed through the barriers... As obviously it takes a bit of time to get to a train from the barriers, even if it happens to be close by? So for example, if it were a 9.32 train and restrictions were lifted at 9.30 and (as an example) the train was on platform 13 at Paddington.. would they not be let through the barriers until 9.30 which would be too late to get the train?  :)

No - "the way you seem to think that people just go out of their way to upset you or be difficult towards you."   - I dislke the assumption I am guilty until proven innocent.  Same way on principle I will not use a petrol station that asks me to pay up front or leave my credit card if I am filling up.  (1) they are assuming I am going to drive off and (2) they dont like it when I refuse to leave my card out of my sight because I assume they are going to skim it as im filling up.  I know day in day out you get the hardened scrotes but I will attest most customers are not trying to evade fares.  (YP card an exception ...... lets not go there on this thread again since FGW are usuallyt not the TOC losing out)



"Do you consider that for every person like yourself who will go thru with an off peak ticket before the time it is valid and mean what they say when they state "dont worry I am not going to travel earlier than allowed, I am going to sit on the empty train and await its departure" - I agree - if they just proffered a ticket to slough or reading however I was proffering not only a ticket to slough but a season to worcester in addition and pointing out I am joining the train on 3 going to worcester!.  If I had just been proffering a ticket to slough or reading - I completely applaud their stance!  It that lack of common sense and joined up thinking that I find irritating.

Maybe I just assume that human being are not drones .......... I often go against client policy - if I can defend it - did today - told them they could tear up one of their procedures as it was not giving them any benefit.  And in the above situation if thats policy, it doesnt need to be torn up - but maybe it needs better staff training or, god forbid, staff of the quality that the judgement can be trusted.

99% of Tm's CH's etc I believe act correctly with judgement.   The reason I put up with FGW is i like the staff - but sometimes they just stick their foot in it and keep digging

Just to emphaise the point:

Customer shows up with

(1) off peak first fare to slough - valid after 1915
(2) first class season to oxford
(3) first class season to worcester
(4) Wants to board the 1922 to hereford via worcester

do you:
a. assume passenger is trying to get to slough using an off peak ticket
b. join the dots

I suspect many people will say the rule book needs to be adapted for - yes I hate to use the word - discretion. 

You gents will naturally see / hear from / spend longer with the people who do complain and may overlook the high proportion who (still) put up with more than they should.

Janet is a complainer, and Peter and Mary accept their lot.   So you have 33% complainers.  But I spend 9 minutes  48 seconds with Janet sorting out her complaint yesterday ... and 6 seconds just 'checking Peter's ticket' and 6 seconds checking Mary's.   98% of my time was spent with complainers, and I got a view that the world is full of complainers, but in fact it's only a minority ...

A well known organisation spoke to all the travellers on both the 06:15 and the 18:45 train from Swindon to West Wiltshire, and asked the passengers whether the train time was good for them.   And of the few passengers on board (very few indeed on the 06:15), they got a positive response ... after all, those people were there to use the train at that time, so it must have been OK for them.   They then drew the conclusion (flawed, I think) that because most of their time had been spent talking to people who said "the service times are OK" that the service times truely were OK (and so an appropriate total service for the route!), rather that doing the right thing which would be to include in their survey all the people who would use such a service if only it were timed better for them.

It's amazing what incorrect conclusions can be reached with skewed data!

The real answer to "what do people think of the system at Paddington" would be to ask a fair an representative proportion of people who use it.  I asked here (about 24 hours ago?) whether there has been any such customer research, but I've yet to see an answer and I suspect that there may not be one forthcoming ...

The West Highland line has them (not on a separate sign, but the "welcome to Station X" notice says something like, "there are no ticketting factilities at this station - please buy your ticket from the  conductor on the train")


Edited to help rendering your message which had a bad quote tag - Graham

i completely agree with you on this.  The root cause is that ticket barriers are not perfect and can't tell which train you will board once you are through them.  The sensible solution would be to give people the benefit of the doubt and for the barriers to let people through say 30 minutes before the ticket is valid and catch the cheats with onboad checks.

I know I have said this before, but ticket barriers and automatic ones especially are not perfect and they may have a role in preventing fare evasion but they are not an subsitute for good on board checks.  It seems to me that TOCs are installing barriers not because they are the best solution to ticketless travel but because they are the easiest solution (and they are highly visible so it makes them look like they are taking the problem seriously).  it is much easier for a TOC to manage staff at stations than on board a train to make sure they do their ticket checks.  Its cheaper to employ barrier staff than on train staff. 

I am anti-barriers at most stations and the main reason is that once they are installed the quality of onboard checking always seems to fall.  Honest customers get annoyed by two things in relation to ticket checking.  They generally don't like barriers if they hold them up but conversely they don't like not being checked on board.   

I'd have you arrested as a ticket tout.  ;)

Maybe I am missing something? I do have a great deal of sympathy for those passengers that are treated harshly to protect the company from those that are trying to defraud FGW (which includes many cases of first class season ticket fraud over the years). But why didn't you just show your season ticket? It's valid on any train to any destination that's en-route, so you could have said you wanted to break your journey at Reading and wanted to catch the fast train to Reading? At that time of night surely something else was advertised on Platforms 2-5?

Or failing that wander up platforms 1 or 8 and walk up the overbridge and try again - most often there's nobody up there checking tickets at all!

Or failing that give up and wander back to MacDonalds and eat the meal in one of the seats that you've just purchased your meal from?

I have just deleted a post that I considered to be a personal attack by one member on another; this action was taken during a very brief break from my work, and further action (including perhaps requesting the member who's post I removed to explian why he posted in the way he did) when I get a chance, which may be late tonight.

In the meantime, please remember the forum agreement.  If in doubt, read it again. And if still in doubt, don't post!

Added, 24 hours later:

Explanation (and advise) at
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4652.0

Because my season ticket only goes to slough - hence the purchase of the additional off peak to get me into London so I could pick up something left in a hotel for me by a friend.  Did they not put ticket barriers on the over bridge cos I have to admit that is what I used to do

Oh, OK that makes more sense then! They have put ticket barriers on the overbridge but they are rarely staffed - though it seems that they have started to get their act together on that front the last few weeks. The staff on the overbridge are far less hassled than those at the main gates - and (if there was anybody on duty there) you would probably have had more time to explain your (unusual, but not unheard of) situation to them, so you may have got a more sympathetic hearing.

As for the advertising of departures. I presume Gateline staff are told not to advertise or confirm a platform until it has been officially advertised. Even a small trickle of passengers trying to join a train whilst it is being cleaned, tanked and labelled up hinders the speed at which that can be completed. With tight turnarounds that can easily lead to delays. That's without any last minute changes that (albeit rarely) can cause train diagrams to be changed - even when labelled up and ready to go.

I said that I fully sympathise with customers with genuine issues that are not dealt with fairly, but it's a difficult job on the barriers. It's a poorly paid job, attracting a lot of people for whom English is not their first language. So after eight hours of checking tickets, dealing with complaints, constant excuses, and all too frequently being told downright lies - I could imagine their judgement as to what is fairest for the customer sometimes goes a little awry!

[quote author=IndustryInsider link=topic=4629.msg41212#msg41212 , it's a difficult job on the barriers. It's a poorly paid job, attracting a lot of people for whom English is not their first language. So after eight hours of checking tickets, dealing with complaints, constant excuses, and all too frequently being told downright lies - I could imagine their judgement as to what is fairest for the customer sometimes goes a little awry!
[/quote]

Another reason why on-train checking by better trained and better paid staff is my preference.

I would like to bet that noone has ever got away with dodging a fare on the Heathrow Express.  Even though there are no barriers and the journey is only 10 to 15 minutes long, the  on-train staff are so efficient that every ticket gets checked every time.  In an ideal world I would like to see that on all FGW's trains and the barriers removed.   If this means employing more on-train staff then that is what should be done.  There must be a good 40 to 50 staff employed at barriers between Paddington and Bristol.  If you replaced them with 30 extra travelling ticket inspectors and a few extra BTP officers on twice the wage (paid for by getting rid of the barrier staff and cancelling the barrier maintenace contract) you could get one or two extra ticket inspectors on every single train for at least part of the journey.  Evasion could still be tackled but passengers would be happier, door to door journsy would be quicker and trains would be safer because of more staff on trains

I disagree - barriers should enhance ticket checks. Because guards should be able to get through the train a lot quicker (selling fewer tickets, as people have had to buy before) - checking the whole train before the next stop.

With the advent of the Oyster Card, and the gradual National uptake of "Smartcard Ticketing", barriers will become less of a strain. Look at commuters on the Underground - tap in, tap out - you hardly need to slow down!

Another reason why on-train checking by better trained and better paid staff is my preference.

I would like to bet that noone has ever got away with dodging a fare on the Heathrow Express.  Even though there are no barriers and the journey is only 10 to 15 minutes long, the  on-train staff are so efficient that every ticket gets checked every time.  In an ideal world I would like to see that on all FGW's trains and the barriers removed.   If this means employing more on-train staff then that is what should be done.  There must be a good 40 to 50 staff employed at barriers between Paddington and Bristol.  If you replaced them with 30 extra travelling ticket inspectors and a few extra BTP officers on twice the wage (paid for by getting rid of the barrier staff and cancelling the barrier maintenace contract) you could get one or two extra ticket inspectors on every single train for at least part of the journey.  Evasion could still be tackled but passengers would be happier, door to door journsy would be quicker and trains would be safer because of more staff on trains
[/quote]heathrow express is easy to do as only very few ticket types and not 8 coaches full and standing!

Just heard a good one tonight - guy sitting in FC with a standard ticket claiming he had no choice to sit there because coach E was in the wrong place and he couldnt be expected to invest the effort in learning an alphabet that is different to the alphabet used by the rest of the world.  Then demanded the TM clear the aisles for him as he couldnt be expected to move people of the way to get to carriage E now he's on the train!

Provided some degree of humourous entertainment to the rest of us!  Nice try, no cigar

What a pillock. And I'm sure we've all got similar tales of idiocy that we've encountered over the years.

I have a few, I'm probably going to get shot down for this, but I think those tales are what keeps the whole "commuting" experience sane ;D

I take the point but isn't this an argument for simplying ticket types and not that many HSS trains are 8 coaches of full and standing

Tell you what, why don't you try working an HST out of Pad and seeing how easy it is, don't forget it's not just tickets when your walking through, you've got people asking questions about the buffet, connections, moaning about weather and you always get the one who just wants to tell you their life story....then tell you they've got no money! and before you know it you've only done two coaches and...Reading, so then your announcement and the correct position to release the doors..... Barriers are a god send and it's suprising aswell how many people don't think to just buy a ticket to th next stop and when they see barriers they buy their correct ticket.

There's many a true word spoken 'in jest'.  That sounds like a really excellent idea - to have a customer / customer representative shadow a train manager and see it from all sides, and report back. 

Isn't this the sort of thing that the customer panel is supposed to get involved with?  Has it ever been done?  And if so, are there any customer panel reports / comments that we could reproduce here, or customer panel members who would care to write it up for all the members and guests here?

That makes sense in theory but in my experience it doesn't work in practise.  My most frequent peaktime journey is Bath - London.  Eight years ago you could board without a ticket and buy on the train.  A handfull of people on each coach did this every morning and everyone was checked every morning.  Nowadays you get checked perhaps 60% of the time.  I know that there are more passengers than 8 years ago, but we also have gates and fewer on board purchases so in theory the guard could move more quickly.  I don't know enough about why onboard checks have deteriorated so I won't jump to the conclusion that it is lazy guards because that could well be wrong as well as offensive to well-motivated staff. 

All I will say is that I have the suspicion that if there were no barriers, on train checks would be better than they currently are (they would have to be in order to prevent huge loss of revenue).  Therefore I conclude that the errection of barriers have reduced the number on on-train checks something which makes me anti-barrier in general. 

Vacman,  I wasn't saying that checking all tickets on a full HST was an easy job.  My earlier post made the suggestion that if the job was too much for the Guard, FGW should employ extra on-train ticket checkers. 

barriers make sense at some stations but they are not a panacea, something the Transport Select committe agrees with

See http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmtran/84/8406.htm

 

I travelled from Cardiff to BTM and back on Friday.  I went mid morning and came back mid evening.

The BTM bound guard/TM/whatever they're called this week made several ticket checks allowing for the fact that there are unbarriered stations on the journey. Not only that but he insisted on checking the passes as well as the tickets.  He was wandering down the aisle saying "Tickets and passes, please."

On the way back I was in the rear carriage of 3 of a 158 set. Despite the fact there was on and off at every station the TM didn't budge from her seat and when I got off at Cardiff Central she was already hanging out the door with her case in her hand.  The train was less than one third full I judge.  Certainly no-one was standing, including her obviously. 

I agree. If there are barriers, it:

(a) Forces the people who can't be bothered to queue, or those in a hurry, or simply those who forget to buy a ticket. Most of these people are law abiding, and pay the full fare. Result, less ticket selling on the train. Better checks.

(b) Gives fare dodgers a (perhaps false) sense of high ticket checking, so they are put off and pay the full fare.

(c) Improves security at the station, and can be used for passenger counts/ overcrowding figures (a la London Midland).

I think all major stations should have barriers, and "staff barriers" should appear at other stations at random times, as well as RPIs on trains.

Or - forces law abiding people who are held up who are wanting to pay to miss their train because they are running late and cant queue and the barriers do not let them through

In a previous life when I cycled from egham to slough, I missed the train a few times because the ticket was in my back pack, the train was on the platform, and I had to stop to fish it out

A few times in the last three weeks, if I hadnt had the season going one way, id have missed the train going the way I wanted to go (this will be resolved when I renew my season on the 26th)

Well surely if you were doing it every day then you may well have it ready as you know you will have to show it??? once is unlucky, twice is getting daft but three times is just......................................... thats not the fault of the barriers, it's you!!!

On this - I will admit its my fault but I do shave things close to the wire!  However in the last 2.5 weeks, its not all my fault - I'm learning how long the buses take to get to thestation - company operates a private shuttle - they guarntee departure time but not arrival - its trial and error!

However it doesnt give you a warm fuzzy feeling when the train is coming on the platform, you have a ticket but you  have to prove it before getting through the godamn barriers.

Hmm.  The problem, as I see it, is that you just can't rely on the train being a few minutes late, these days: FGW are just so bluddy punctual now!  ;) :D ;D

Especially when your next train - unlike the reading/oxford commuters - might be an hour or more!

And becaus eyou commute so long, it CAN make all the difference getting the 17:15 bus as opposed to the 16:55 - it the appearance that can make the difference.,  The 16:55 gets you there in plenty of time - the 17:15 - gets you the most of the time.

I am just opposed to barriers.As long as tickets can be sold on trains, have no barriers.  Its confusing especially when rules and penalties are not enforced - maybe if TM's had the rule - sell a ticket on the train, make it a penalty fair - ok thats the rules - we know it

OR - make the rule - you have to have a ticket before you board - if you dont its a ^5000 fine and there are NO excuses - 100%  no holds barred.

THAT is a penalty

As I said last year - the number of times my tickets were check was zero - even tonight a TM who hadnt seen me for six months just started up convo with me - didnt bother checking my ticket.  I have a season so no issue but..............

As I've said - I would never do it but relying on barriers I could have gotten away with - for over a year - a charlbury to reading tickets up (ticket inspector got on at charlbury)  and a reading to reading west down - no ticket check after PAD at all.

Wouldnt do it because I pay may fare and if I gt found out I'd lose the trust of the staff on that line which works in my favour more often than not.

Barriers are NOT the solution

my comments are:

(a) How much would it cost NR/NR to cut a couple of minutes off the journey time between, say Bristol and London by increasing line speeds or capacity or accelartion of some other engineering solution?  Quite possibly many millions more than can be afforded.  But train speeds are not the only factor influencing door to door journey time and you could cut a couple of minutes off everyones journey by removing barriers and selling tickets on the train.  Employing more on-train checkers and ticket sells would be cheaper than the engineering solutions.

(b) A false sense will not last long when the potential fare dodger sees the reality.  The existance of "dumbelling" and reusing tickets and otehr such scams demontrates that fare dogders are often not stupid. 

(c) the "improves security" arguement is the one that annoys me the most.  Most disorder, crime and bad behavious happens later in the evening when the barriers are left open and fewer on-train checks make for a lower staff presence on board and worse security for passengers and staff on the train.

They're not the solution. But they are a part of the solution.

I agree.  Other parts of the solution are:

1) Good on-train checks.  Motivate existing staff to do thsi where needed and employ new staff where needed.
2) working TVM, ticket offices
3) consistant policy and message in dealing with offenders
4) Simple fares and restrictions.  the current mess both causes honest travellers to get things wrong by mistake (which makes it hard to argue against staff leneicy/descretion on some occassions which undermines point 3)) and provides legal and illegal loopholes which encourages evasion and breeds an attitude of trying to away without paying the normal fare.  Fare dodgers know that things are complicated and will sometimes get things wrong by mistake and claim it as a mistake.  Simple fares would also make the guard's job easier and quicker and he would therefore have more time for checks.  Also wait to buy tickets would be shorter. 
5) Proper support for staff by BTP.  No use a Guard trying to throw an offender off the train if there isn;t a policeman at the next station to help him do this.

and barriers where used need to be used properly - ie there needs to be enough of them, they need to be manned by friendly staff, they need to be operational at all times, they need to be used in a customer-friendly and intellient way

I'd have more respect for TOCs installing barriers if they also addressed the list above rather than installing barriers and then annoucing that they are "tackling fare evasion"

.....................preferably ones that are open !

On a related note: I liked the "Ticket Office Opening Hours" table in the back of the good old Timetable Book E.
This states that Filton Abbey Wood is "Closed" on Sats & Suns, but Weekdays that it is "Unstaffed" - is there some subtle difference here that I am missing ?

Must be self-service or help yourself on weekdays :D

Barriers cut evasion full stop. They are not going to go. Someone buying a ticket to get through the barrier than someone not buying a ticket. For that reason they are going to stay around. And it is a good thing.

Agreed. Enhanced on-board checks and barriers at major stations is the best way of reducing evasion.

Having no barriers would hugely reduce collected revenue, as guards would not be able to sell tickets to a whole HST before Reading.

The question has to be asked though why Switzerland which has the most efficient railway in the world has NO barriers whatsoever.

Is it as intensive as the UK
are there as many un-desireables as the UK?, Are there as many Passengers? do they have a Penalty fare type system? One thing about UK residents is that 90% seem to think that the world owes them a living, that is the society that has forced such measures such as barriers and Penalty fares!

It's a whole different state of being over in Switzerland though, no one would ever dream of even contemplating fare evasion, it's such an alien concept to them. The Swiss rail system really does put ours in it's place - I remember last time I was there there'd been an avalanche on the line overnight so they just fitted a massive snowplough to the front of the train and it was 2 seconds late pulling out of the station - over here you'll have leaves on the line causing delays of hours.

Which is why I favour the following system:

1. Simple fares
2. Ability to pay on board if you actively seek a TM - even if it means standing in the buffet or near the end cab
3.punitive penalties thaT ARE ALWAYS  ENFORCED if the above doesnt apply

I did no 2 this morning. Got on train at Swindon using my season to get through barriers as I was in rush, and as the train was pulling out sought out the TM to buy a ticket. He asked whether the barriers were open (but interestingly not why I hadn't bought a ticket), and when I explained what I had done he willingly sold me an off peak ticket to London. Common sense all round.

 

Ah but some would say we're evading

I got done this morning

I got on at WOS with the intention of getting off at Reading to change to slough to go to work

Details removed but I had a toilet incident as we went through tilehurst and I was still attached as the train pulled out.................when I was free to move (I think we were at langley) - I could not find the TM or the ticket guy so I ended up at pad - went to the excess fares counter and got penaltied - fare cop - but really - 900+ a month for a season - proof Im working in slough.  Ironically I could have loitered and waited until the over bridge barriers shut off - but I  didnt - not me.

Oh hum.  Next time I'll just loiter until a slough train goes from a barrier platform - with wireless I can work from the platform

I am not sure that they do, if they lead to a reduiction in the number on on train checks which I reckon is what has happened on the FGW network over the last few years

Thank you for that. I mis-read it, and now I have to clean the coffee off my keyboard :D

:P


Bad luck? What was the penalty fare? Did you try and explain?

Write to fgw and make a fuss. Compensation culture these days means they are potentally likely to do something as a goodwill gesture.

Threaten to drive!

But first, follow the appeal procedure on the penalty fare. If that doesn't work, complain to FGW.

I don't see you getting far complaining about that, You were legitimately Penalty Fared. No way of winning that one, you didn't have a valid ticket in a Penalty Fare zone. Rules are rules, and you broke them.
Barriers don't really cut on board ticket checks, they compliment them. Barriers can't tell valid tickets, and on board checks do still happen, the exception is HST's, but, I hate to say, it is often down to lazy staff.

Now, you see - that is the attitude that precisely sums up why jobsworths are loathed.

I did not want to go to london - in fact, the only reason I had to go through the barrier is that the next train BACK TO SLOUGH left from the other section of barrier platforms.  In fact - I'd have been quite happy to be escorted back through the other barriers!

I paid my fine - I have no intention of appealing - but:

why would someone who works in slough, pays ^900+ a month on a season, and is desperately trying to get back to slough be trying to fare dodge.

Its a bit like the checkout girl who ID'd me for alcohol when I was paying with a platinum amex.  I had no ID on me but she could not work out the login.  Either I'm over 25 (the age limit for said card but even without that, you cant get a credit card until you are 18) and this is a genuine credit card, or, I'm under 18 in which case call the police because I'm using a fake card or have stolen it. 

P.S. What was I supposed to do - leave the kasi and produce a nasty mess for the cleaners to clean up - ok it would have proved my point!

If one really wanted to - I wonder what the papers would make of it.................passenger penaltied for unfortunately timed attack of the alex fergusons.  Penalty for being ill.

I suspect that being taken ill (putting things delicately...) and being accidentally overcarried actually might be good grounds for an appeal, although I don't know if it is possible to make an appeal if you have already paid the penalty fare in full. I don't know what the situation is these days, but in the past provision was always made, in the case of a passenger being accidentally carried beyond their destination (I guess through falling asleep or other cause), for the guard or ticket examiner to endorse their ticket, enabling them to alight at the next station and catch the first train back to their intended destination at no additional charge (this was certainly in the Ticket Examiners' Handbook around 1993).

It indeed looks like you had a valid reason, fair enough, but s/he is not being a jobsworth penalty fareing you, they are doing their job.

I made the mistake of when I boarded a train last week, was at an Unstaffed Station and got on the train (already had a ticket) and went straight into the toilet... Possible explainations for this:

1) Classic Fare Dodger Behaviour

2) Train station toilets weren't open and nearest public ones were over a mile away :-\

I was covered on explaination 2... However the TM didn't quite believe me until I pulled out my valid ticket and railcard ;D

Which goes back to the heart of my issue with the current system - revenue is everything, no human intervention above tat of a drone, and screw the customer for everything because we're all fare dodging scroates

I'm not criticising the majority of the staff, more the system.

On the other hand how many different excuses do you think the gateline listen to every day?

kinda get the impression they want everyone to buy online and use major stations only

Fine - I have no problem with that however as I said before:

Passenger turns up no ticket, wants to go through with the alex ferguson excuse - scpetic mode rules

Passenger turns up wanting to get to slough, has tickets to slough, just wants to be let onto the other set of platforms where the next slough train leaves from, can prove they have to be in slough that day (and for the sake of a return slough to pad setting that up is hardly worth it) - getting the response "computer says no" does not leave a woolly feeling.  It is not helped, and I hate to say this, by the majority of london based station and train crew not having full command of the English language - some of the gate line are bearly understandable and really struggle with regional accents like mine.

violin anyone

clarify?

Let me guess - despite the fact I decalred at the time of getting a YP card I was an OU student and despite not making it any secret to anyone who sells me a ticket based on one and despite the fact I make it clear I buy tickets on the trains because the ticket machines will  not issue a YP discount on FC - its MY FAULT I can do this and I suspect thinks I should be in court on fraud charges.

So he has no sympathy that I was penalty fared due to the attack of the alex fergusons.  I am not appealing (even though I think I probably could) because on balance I have benefitted more than not - I was just illustrating a point.

Imagine a first time user of FGW was in the situation I found myself in - would they come back again?

A couple of points in 'clarification' from me:

Firstly (and I've mentioned this before), it does make it easier for all of our readers to follow a topic if posters would please use 'reply', rather than 'quote', whenever possible.

Secondly (and I'm rather sorry I have to mention this now), but it is getting slightly tedious for the rest of us, to have to read constant comments and counter-comments between certain members here, when they are posted in topics on the open forum.  May I remind everyone that there is our 'frequent posters club', where established members may continue to discuss their differences, away from the public eye - if they feel the need to do so?

Thanks.

Chris.

wrist slapped, im sorry :(

Without pointing fingers... I don't think Mr Chris post was directed at you Relex ;)

understood

Thank you for cooling it / bringing posts back within our posting policy and all the various legal limits that there are on posts, etc.   I have restored the original thread for referenece too, minus the posts that could have go me (as admin) into trouble once I became aware of their presence.   Enough has been said on the subject ... except that if warnings about posting beyond board / legal limits have been p.m.d to several people, and if further postings beyond the limits occur I'll have to go a step or two further.

Nearly fell a cropper last night - but application of common sense saved me.

Exeter train in on Plat 10, Empty stock rolls in on 9 and worcester CH are on the platform.  Get on - obviously cant hear the announcements anymore so did not hear the announcement that this was the Bristol train.  Common sense kicked in when (1) I did not see any of the regulars who are normally in my carriage and (2) I saw the two worcester CH leaving for platforms elsewhere. 

Tracked down an unlabelled HST on platform 3 - was the only other possibility by this time unless the 1821 was going to be delayed - sure enough Hereford was announce a couple of minutes later. 

Point is, if I'd been carried well on my way to Bristol, I could hardly have complained.

This sounds like a last minute swap which may well have been connected with the 17:00 Paddington-Bristol train failing just outside platform 4 at Reading. It didn't move for about 80 minutes and left platform 4 unavailable for use for over an hour and a half. Anyone who knows Reading will know what the effect of a through platform out of use for the peak hours has - and despite some great work from the signallers and announcers, there were delays quickly building up to trains in both directions.

The revamped Reading should be able to cope with a situation like this much better with its additional through platforms.

sounds like it since the buffet had the square root of sweet FA in terms of stock!

thats a good point at busy stations is the infor system goes down... on the hst's there is no destination display like the voyagers and they nolonger use the printed list of stops for the windows

They do!

There are printed stickers in most HST windows!  Except in the case of a set swap - like last night

I had a similar situation last Friday with the 16:44 Service to Penzance at Bristol... Was booked for Platform 10... Little did we know that further up the line on Platform 9, A 158 decided to take up residence... >:(

2 minutes before the train was due to leave... "Attention Please, This is a Platform Alteration" changed to platform 8... A Surge of bodies heads for platform 8 just as the pax from the 16:44 Surge into the Subway... Not Fun ::)

Brings back memories East Croydon early 60s around 08:00 Victoria passengers on 1 London Bridge on 3/4.

Trains come up from Coulsdon on the wrong lines. Chaos. The best place to be when that happened was in the box. I did wonder sometimes whether it really was chance or skilful regulation.

seems to be i only travel on fgw hst's that are london bound maybe they dont have the resources/facilitys to apply these at plymouth paignton or penzance

Or ......... east bound HST's only really have one destination!  Intermediate stops may/may not change but these days I suspect are more consistent than not.

So the benefit of stickers on London bound HST's are of limited use?

agreed, however as i havnt seen the labels i didnt know they still existed

Agreed: west-bound HSTs still have window stickers, as they warn of the shorter platforms, for the benefit of those intending to alight, at (for example) Nailsea & Backwell, Yatton ...  ::)

No disrespect to anyone, as somebody may have been in this situation... But even then Chris, People still don't get that HST's stop at short platforms...! Many a time have a seen somebody hurtle down from Coach H - to Coach D to alight at one of those stations...! It becomes quite amusing after a while...! :P ;D ;) ::)

it could be on a huge poster infront of the door saying do not use this door at ''some station'' due to short platforms and you would still see people trying to get off... an example is the end doors on class 159/158's which are locked and have an illuminated sign above them however you still see people jabbing at the button then you hear bep bep bep bep bep and they run to the other end   ;D

Load of tosh... all HST services should have them.  The PLY-PAD I was on this morning had them.  Laira and Exeter haven't suddenly lost the ability to stick some window labels on  ::)

Especially when it is the same people night after night!

maybee im blind then  ;)

Might explain the typos   ;D

no thats caused by sidmouth college and a couple of missing basepair sequences, anyway moving back to topic is there an rough guesstimate on number of fair dodgers

Are you sure you don't mean 'fare dodgems'?  ::)

Window labels are always applied at Penzance

They'll normally be applied to all services, but you'll find trains that originate at smaller or unstaffed stations (Great Malvern is a good example) will be more likely not to have them as they have to be left in the TM's Compartment prior to departure from Paddington on the previous service. They are then reliant on the TM having enough time (and in some cases enough inclination) to put them up when they turn round to form the return service.