Great Western Coffee Shop

There has been a dramatic rise in the number of Asian women , including Indians , committing suicide on just one stretch of a railway track in west London , an internal report has revealed (link below.)
http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2007/09/great_western_mainline_claims.html#more

The First Great Western manager's report said one third of the total such suicides in England and Wales now happen on the line passing through Southall , which has a very large Asian community and a "disproportionately high number" of the total fatalities in the area were women of Asian origin.

Figures showed that 80 of the 240 rail suicides nationally last year were on that particular stretch of line.

A women's right group has claimed that the suicides were linked to the prevalence of domestic violence in Asian families.

There was a section of the Midland Main Line know as Suicide Mile somewhere north of Leicester, again a High Asian population.

I experienced the disruption first hand tonight trying to get home from Paddington.

I do not mean to be insensitive, but so many fatalities happen at Southall station, something must be done to try and prevent this.

Why can there not be tube style platform edge doors (see picture)?

And if this is too expensive perhaps fence off the fast line platforms, I know access is needed to these platforms sometimes for late night/early morning services, but why not separate the platforms from the normal station and just have gated access for when it is needed?

Or why not do what they do elsewhere - scrape up the remains, get the trains running and ask questions later.  99.99% are suicides - why inconvenience several thousands of passengers

There are a lot of fatalities in the Southall area its very sad to say. If someone is determined to end their life there is very little you can do to stop it as it only takes seconds. Its very hard to make either a railway station or the railway line totally secure to stop this from happening.

As hinted by Timmer, they would only go and find somewhere else to do it  :-\

Which is why I dont understand why they cause hours of disruption over it!

I personally would not be horrified to find people suing the estate of the deceased - might make them think of a less disruptive way to do it

The sad fact is, a lot of suicides are a tragic form of attention seeking. Even if some entrepreneur were to buy a length of line complete with overbridge and run driverless trains up and down all day long, and charge people a small fee for the chance to jump off the bridge and top themselves at little or no inconvenience to anyone else, people will still choose a busy main line to make their point.

yeah of course it will.

hmmm let me think - im depressed and suicidal and i was thinking of jumping in front of a train at my local station - oh no, better not, someone might sue me for their delay. gosh i better not, i feel all better now.

yeah i see it happening

I'll let our traincrew posters reply on your first point as to why it takes the time that it does before they reopen the line.

On your second point, do you think it would make any difference? When you are in such a state to want to end your life, I'm sure you don't give a monkeys about the people you leave behind and the mess you are leaving for them to clear up as well as them having to live with the fact that you wanted to end your life for the rest of their lives.

It might if they think of the impact on their loved ones

Having lost a cousin to suicide (not train related) I know that one of the reasons he did it was because he thought it was easier for his wife and kids if he did

He drove his car into a bridge wall at 90mph head on so as not to involve anyone else. (he left a video diary explaining why he did it)

Maybe a few would be moved elsewhere (no they wouldnt be stopped - if they are that determined they will do it) but it might make them consider an alternative

Granted you will send them elsewhere, but my point is that, if you introduce measures to try and deter people, it may increase the chance of intervention> There is no way anyone can intervene at a railway station because before you know anything its too late.

Whenever a fatality occurs, the line is closed, and British Transport Police take control, or local police until BTP turn up. They need to investigate whether there is suspicious circumstances. Line doesn't open full/partial until they say so.

Also people tend to forget that a body doesn't always stay in one piece when it's hit...

I feel sorry for the driver or whoever has to witness it.  I've been stuck at both Paddington and Reading on my way home on more than one occassion because of a fatality, one time on a train outside of Reading for nearly an hour because there was no free platform, it then ended up going into a terminating platform and we got stuck at reading for another 90mins. 
I see there was another fatality at hilsea today, also.  Busy day for FGW then. :(
I think the Worst disruption i've ever faced was back in July last year when there was all those Landslides and flooding (i was travelling up from Chichester to Charlbury) and it ended up going from our scheduled 2 trains to 6. It was awfully chaotic,you'd get so far and then the train would be terminated and they couldn't give out any information, because they just didnt know when any train was actually going to arrive.  I must say, the guys working for southern in the office at Chichester station were extremely helpful whereas when we managed to get to Reading after 7 hours (that's how chaotic it was!) FGW staff really weren't that helpful or supportive atall... so i hope they were better turned out today!
(sorry to go off topic there!)

Platform edge doors can only be used when trains are in fixed formation and doors are always going to be in the same place - ie, stopping less than half a metre on either side of the stopping marker. The Jubilee Line works by doing this, when stopped a computer makes contact with the computer on the platform at the marker, and illuminates an Accurate Stop light if it is, indeed, an accurate stop.

It may be possible on the Turbo platforms but I doubt it is wise to introduce until Crossrail comes in.

Judging by the length of the delay of this particular incident ( 4 1/2 hours +) I would of thought that this was more than just a suicide. If the police decide that a crime may of committed then the process of collecting evidence etc needs to undertaken. Normally when it's plain that any such incident is in fact just suicide then the line is re-opened in a fraction of the time. Gone are the days however when any body parts were just covered up with a black bag for collection later.

I too suffered the delays, from Maidenhead to Thatcham. Normally would be home at 18:45, didn't get home till about an hour and 15 later.

Does anyone have a link to a news article about this, I'd be interested to see some sort of follow up. What I can't understand is why the trains have to go all the way to the problematic station, why not drop off and turn around one station away and provide a bus service for the leg that has a problem.

Passengers shouldl be compenstated from the deceased's estate.

Welcome to the forum, eneville.

It took me 10 hours to get from Brighton to Barnstaple - a journey that would have been even longer (13 hrs) if some kind person hadn't taken me off the train at Tiverton with her and driven me home from there - but I just want to say I thought the staff at Reading were great!  It was a hugely difficult situation for everybody, with, naturally loads of stress and anxiety - and the FGW staff kept us continuously updated and got us moving as soon as they could.  Thanks, guys!

I'm sure they really couldnt care less if they've become suicidal. (the person)

Over here theres a lot of us "culture" (sueing) moving in, so unless the cops do it properly, people could claim negligence/other crap to gain money.

The use of platform edge doors won't stop Suicides because there's more than one way to get on to a Railway Track.

However, (and I expect many will disagree with my thoughts on Suicide).
Ending it all under a train is a Selfish way to Die, it's messy, not all ways painless, and effects the staff involved, some so badly they never drive a train again, some NEVER work again.

Yet for the Suicidal what help is available to help them, for what ever reason people become sucidal, Ok they can see their Doctor, often ending up on Pills, that's only a short term fix.

Samaritans offer a Listening Service, they don't offer direct help, (I'm a trained Samaritan), what is the right advice for one man, is wrong for the next man.
Samaritians talk people through their problems and get the caller to think positive and get them to put forward their own cures to their problems.

However I've held the view for a long time that the NHS should issue a booklet on ending your life, that gives lots of Help line numbers and contacts so all the help you need is there, and for those still wanting to end it all some basic ideas on how to end your life.

Some would say it's wrong legally to offer such advice, well it's also illegal to use illegal drugs but the NHS freely give out Needles to Junkies, there are ways to end it all that have much less effect on the body, and anyone taking their life under a Train needs to remember that SOMEBODY, often Wife/Husband has to identify the Body, well let's face it THE BITS.

Would you really want the last memory your partner has of you, to be your body in bits!!!

all depends on the circumstances how long line closed for,in this case it was a woman who decided to take her young child with her (led to believe was about 12 months old)
the area is treated as a crime scene and not reopened until all evidence is obtained and bits of body removed,understandable in my opinion regardless of how long this takes.whats more fgw or any other toc for that matter has no say in when line is reopened.
for all the posters complaining about the disruption i have one question   how would you feel if it was one of your loved ones involved and the police did not collect all the evidence and then left the remains on the track until a later time,just to save some travellers a bit of disruption?

by the end of play yesterday there had been 3 fatalities
1 southall
2 hilsea near pompey
3 between southampton and eastleigh
must of been something in the air?

It's very sad when somebody decides that they're going to commit suicide.  I feel also for the people picking up the pieces (metaphorically and physically) such as the train driver, etc.  The police always need to treat a suicide as suspicious until it's proven otherwise - think of the consequences if all deaths were treated initially as suicides and evidence was thrown away before a chance to see if it was actually a murder or not?  Could replace the traditional foundations of buildings and motorways as a new venue for criminal elements to dispose of people  :o

End result is that we're all delayed on occasion by several hours.  But our lives go on. We don't have grieving families or traumatised staff to worry about.  Sometimes you just need to grin and bear it and be greatful that your life isn't as desperate as those who've leapt in front of the train.  All FGW can really do is keep the delays to a reasonable minimum and provide pasengers with regular updates about what's happening.

I've lost a cousin to suicide ....... but if he hadnt done it the way he did, he would have found a way.

Someone who is determined to end it, will do it.  You are not going to stop them (not in the long term)

I actually agree about the giving advice.

I don^t know this for a fact but I believe most of the suicides are from the station or surrounding area, and I would have thought that they would have gained access from the station.

The platform edge doors would be expensive to install, but you cant put a cost on a human life, and it would also save the train operators money, because of the cost of the delays and there would be less need to replace train drivers who go off sick after being involved in this sort of thing, many don^t drive trains again!

Even if they decided the edge doors are too expensive, just improving the fencing to try and stop people getting onto the tracks, like I said before stop all access to the platforms that the fast trains run past, this could be achieved at a relatively low cost.

I think it is a very selfish way to commit suicide, I bet they don^t think about what they put the poor train driver though, you are potentially ruining someone^s livelihood many, of the drivers never recover from being involved in these incidents.

If someone wants to end their life, a fence isn't going to stop them.

Southall has a road bridge which people jump from as well. It isn't always just jumping off a platform.

So put a fence on the bridge I only count 3 bridges in the southall area all on busy roads, if someone was climbing it hopefully someone would have the sense to call the police. Realistically how much is that going to cost compared to the cost of sorting out the mess after.

I agree if someone is going to end their life then you are not going to stop them, but if you make it harder for them to do it in this way, increasing the chance of intervention, and not involving innocent people on the railway just going about there business.

Think i'd jump in front of a train if I had to live in Southall!!  :D :D

Oy,
My Great Uncle lives in Southall, he often says he is the only white person living there.

Even by fencing a bridge, or end of platforms, whatever, people will still be able to get on to the track one way or another.
Bad maybe, but true.

They may well find some alternative way on to the tracks, but I still think that the most obvious ways should be stopped. When someone is feeling suicidal, are they really going to spend time trying to find a way onto the tracks or are they just going to go somewhere else or even better perhaps reconsider.

Why is everyone resigned to this becoming a fact of life and not more outraged that more is not being done to try and stop it?

Because some of us accept if someone really wants to kill themself they will - and I'm not sure i\m of the opinion you should try to stop them

Given that they will do it anyway - in the lack of any advice of the best way to do it (note in America, train or vehicle suicides are low because people can simply swallow a hand gun) the most obvious is launching yourself in front of a train (given their inertia they will almost certainly drive over you if you dont get decapitated on impact - may be painful if not perfected but not as drawn out as death by paracetamol) - throwing yourself in front of a lorry is less accurate as they have more chance of swerving - wrist slitting is bad as it hardly ever works - narcotic overdose works but you have to get enough of them)

In fact, the best method is to get in a car and drive it at 100 mph + into a motorway bridge - head on - involves no one else and almost 100% successful

(not I am not suicidal but I did research this when my cousin departed this world by just that method)

I am not of the opinion that you should stop someone trying to kill themselves, IF they do it in a way that does not affect anyone else. Now anyone who commits suicide is going to cause hurt to their family, but why should they be allowed to cause additional hurt to people who have nothing to do with them, such as a train driver.

A member of my family works for a TOC and I dread the day that they are operating a train and someone throws themselves in front of it.

It's a strange fact that some train drivers have several Suicidal people end it all under their train.
For some it finishes their Driving days, some can shake it off.

I know 1 Driver had his first in his first 4 weeks of being in the Cab, I believe he's up to 5 now and he been driving for about 8 years.

Another Driver retired after a full working life in the Cab and never killed anyone, not that he knew to, in steam days at night running down a fox, deer or Man made the same kind of noise.

But for would be suicide's be warned that trains don't always kill you and then it's a mighty painful time untill you die or get sorted out at the cost of the NHS.

Maybe they should do a very emotive interview with a driver who has been traumatised by this & then put it in all the local papers (including the Asian lanuage ones) & on Sunrise radio.

I agree that if someone really wants to kill themselves they should be persuaded to do it in a way that doesn't involve anyone else.

So I assume you would support suing the parents of the young lad, whom I had to walk the line to check for the remains of, after he threw himself in front of my train a few years ago?

The inconvience to your journey was nothing compared to the inconvience my driver, myself, those shovelling the remains into the body bags, and perhaps most importantly his family had and in some cases will continue to endure.

Suicides are the fault of society as a whole. Rather than wasting time worrying about expensive infrastructure alterations, spend the money on better provision for those suffering from mental health problems. Perhaps if society wasn't so harsh and cuthroat, people may find a better solution than ending it all. Rather than bleating on about what you are owed, maybe take a few moments to think what you could do for others.

agreed

i too have had to walk the track past body parts and also pull bits off a train,i appreciate that the public are more concerned about disruption but for me i dont really care about that.my main concern is for the train crew who through no fault of their own witnessed the incident,the people who have to remove the bits and of course the family left behind.

so to all you people moaning about delays next time you are caught up in chaos caused by a fatality spare a thought for the people that are really suffering.

to enville,if it were a member of your family that done themselves in would you still be saying compensate the passengers from the deceased estate? i doubt it.

I was delayed by the suicide at Hilsea and at another station on Monday this week and while I feel a little annoyed at being delayed, I know in no way was it the train company, the driver, the BPT's fault. I don't even have any ill feeling for the person who took their life, because I've been so close to it myself before and can easy see where it can be done.

What disturbs me was seeing the attitude of some of the posters in this topic about sueing the persons estate/family in regards to the inconvience it's caused them.

I'm going to be out right blunt but polite with you (and by you, I mean those who think it's the best idea) about it.

You are very wrong.

You've been delayed getting home. Your late for a meeting. Your late for your flight to x place. You won't get in time to watch the latest episode of X program.

The person's family have just lost a family member.

The train driver has just had to witness someone being dragged under the train they are driving, knowing full well they won't survive.

The first carriages passengers will have to see the blood splatter across their windows.

And you want to get money from the persons family for the actions their son, daughter, father, mother, uncle, aunt, cousin, grandfather, grandmother has just taken?

Take a reality check and note you are not that important, that ticket you have in your pocket or wallet does not entitle you to compensation at all from anyone.

I do agree that measures need to be taken to prevent such actions from occuring, and do acknowledge that sadly if someone is very determined, that they will find some way to do it, but thats not an excuse to try and make it incredible hard to do so.

I apologise if I've ruffled a few feathers with my first post on this forum however I've grown very tired of the sue culture that seems to be creeping into the UK from our "friends" in the USA.

well said

but i do not think you need to apologise for ruffling a few feathers,you are just talking sense so the posters you refer to need to take note.

Another fatality at Southall this morning at 9 o'clock. A Heathrow Express was involved. Relief lines reopened within 45 minutes but when I passed at 10:40 the train involved was still standing on the Up Main just past the station. Not sure if the passengers had been de-trained. I doubt it as the only option would have been to walk back down the track which wouldn't have been pleasant for obvious reasons.

And given it can take hours - I wonder how many missed their flights!

i'd have taken the unpleasant walk over flight missing

The train was coming from Heathrow - so not a good start to a UK visit for tourists after a long flight.   Hopefully no-one missed their flights as they did manage to get trains running on the relief lines pretty quickly and I think only one train to the airport was cancelled - the return working of the train involved.

is it just me that finds it sickening that someone has died and some people are more concerned with missing their flights?

I tend to find that when there has been a fatality most people understand and tend not to grumble - but there is always some that feels the need to say something which could be deemed inappropriate.

For example of a couple of responses after being told a fatality.

1st was said to me, but everyone around me heard and someone nearly hit the guy after he made a comment about hoping it was a member of staff
2nd was said to a colleague and the guy wanted to know when they would hurry up and get a train as his dinner was getting cold.

i always remember when i was a kid living up marple and on the way back from chester once all the trains were delayed at manc p, my mum asked a member of staff what was happening and wasnt given a very good reply when my mother pointed out that she was traveling with two young kids and it was nearly 11pm the reply from the female member of staff well its not my f*king fault someones threw themselves infront of a train.... this rather upset my mum at the time and as a result we got free travel for a day i guess everyone deals with it in different ways

If I'm asked what is going on by a person with young children I won't say it's a fatality - I will just say "something" has happened so as not to be too specific in front of the kids - which the parent/guardian seems to appreciate.

Obviously some parents won't mind - but I ain't going to be the one that brings up the subject of death in front of a child.

Thanks for that very sensible comment, Ollie.  :-X

that lex is a strange child  ;D

Having seen the train involved at the depot last night it was clear it was quite a messy one and may well have contributed to the length of time taken to open the Up Main again

Hope your colleague who was driving is OK.

HEX do seem to be unfortunate to take on the lions share of the all-too-regular Southall fatalities.

Seems there's been another fatality at Southall this evening according to Service Update page of nationalrail.co.uk

Yes, it appears so, sadly - from FGW live updates:

Update, from FGW:

I guess Southall isn't a happy place to live :(  Three suicides in as many weeks, I think.  I was on the 19:06 to Henley, which got as far as Westbourne Park before reversing back into Paddington.  Perhaps foolishly, I decided to get a Chiltern service to Wycombe, and a bus to Bourne End to pick up the train again.

Was a failed attempt, person was hit by a Heathrow Connect service.

Last I heard was the person is alive but badly injured.

Thanks for that further helpful information here, Ollie.  :-X

I just hope they don't suffer too much, but hope they can now get the help they obviously need.

They died in hospital apparently, maybe it's time fgw or network rail put some staff on southall platforms to be some sort of deterrent surely the cost of this would be much less than continued delays and compensation payouts

FGW do not, at the moment have to give out compensation to passengers in respect of a delay due to suicide/attempted suicide. That falls outside the remit of their current charter.

Both Heathrow Express and Heatrow Connect also have no liability to compensate passengers for events outside their control.

I guess the best that can be hoped for is a goodwill gesture.

Do Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect run more services percentage wise through Southall than FGW?  Just seems they take the brunt of the incidents between Paddington and Airport Junction.

No FGW tend to have more services - it just seems to be the way it pans out.

With regards to fatalities at and around Southall, you are correct in saying that the Asian population is high and most of the victims are female, reason why they wish to end their lives is to get out of the pre-arrange marriage that their religion adheres to.

As a driver who passes through this station on an almost daily basis I have encountered no problems I also believe that Southall, Hayes and Slough get their fair share of jumpers because the line speed through these stations is 125mph and is an almost sure way to end their life.

I have had a family member take their life, fortunately not by means of a train, sometimes there are no answers to why they choose to do it, depression is not always the reason and for just a moment they are not thinking of the consequences and the inconvenience that it is going to cause family, friends and members of the public.
I have had the unfortunate experience of hitting a person, a trespasser and it is something that will stay with me for the rest of my life but I have to get back on that horse and keep going.

Delaying a train for hours is the result of whether the police see the death as a crime scene, some people are pushed, some people just wander on the railway and trespass and some people just have enough of life. There is never going to be a railway where someone is not going to find a way onto the tracks, no matter how many fences you can put up.

So for all you people who have to be inconvenienced, spare a thought for all involved!!!!!!

Thank you for that very personal note of introduction and explanation, Sleepynights - and may I welcome you to the Coffee Shop forum, even if in suitably subdued terms.

Chris. :(

The thought crosses my mind that NR and FGW might well run a poster campaign at these high suicide spots, offering a route to counselling for those contemplating the jump and also pointing out sharply the injury done not just to delayed passengers but to the driver, police and pw staff who may be affected for life.

As we could afford recorded messages at the Reading escalators warning of trip hazards etc....

OTC