Great Western Coffee Shop

Railfuture press release, just received:

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Ticket Office closures - Penny wise, Pound foolish?
A botched implementation will cost the taxpayer – and passengers

Railfuture has serious concerns that the much speculated ticket office closure programme expected from the Government will be bad for passengers, the taxpayer – and rail staff.

“As taxpayers, we are naturally keen on value for money, and rail staff with the single role of selling an occasional rail ticket isn’t the best use of their time or our money.  But, its an emotive subject, and we can see why.”  said Railfuture director Neil Middleton, who leads on fares and tickets. “It’s emotive because there are only vague words along the lines of ‘It’ll be alright on the night’. There needs to be a proper commitment to the new world which guarantees staff at stations for at least as long as at present, for the continued ability to buy tickets from rail staff as is currently available.  In one sense, the ‘ticket office’ is a side show – the important issue is the people inside them – making the best possible use of their skills and energy to help passengers, with the training and resources they will need to do this.

“Yes, many travellers prefer to buy their tickets online – indeed it’s my own preference – and I personally prefer e-tickets.  But that’s not for everyone – many rail travellers don’t have the option to buy online and may well not own a smartphone, so it’s essential that in-person purchase remains an option.

“Yes, encourage more self-service – but don’t force it.  If this change drives passengers off the trains, then we’ll all be worse off – even though there may be a cost saving (penny wise), if fewer passengers are on the trains it is very easy to see that income will reduce (pound foolish).  Yes, it may be more expensive to sell to the 12% of travellers who buy in-person – but is it really a good idea to give up all of the fare of a traveller who decides not to travel by train in order to save some of the cost?”

Chris Page, chair of Railfuture went on to say “We know in-person ticket purchase is the expensive option for the rail industry.  Whilst for some travellers it will remain the only choice, for others, they buy in-person because rail ticketing is so complex  - the Independent Rail Retailers Association recently reported that there are 2,822 ticket types on National Rail, with 901 names and 665 restriction codes (note 1). Faced with that complexity, regular cries for help are inevitable. The glacial pace of ticketing reform needs to pick up speed considerably.”

Neil went on to comment “We don't oppose change, but it must result in services that are more appealing to passengers. Ticket office staff relocated to the platform can help passengers in so many ways – providing information and helping passengers on to trains – and selling tickets of course.”

 “The alternatives to in-person ticket sales need to be made much better – why can’t products like ChatGPT be used to interpret natural language requests from passengers – ‘I want to go from Stevenage to Leeds next Wednesday, arriving by 10am; I want to come back sometime early evening’.  A proper fares engine, that covers every fare, including split tickets could come back to the passenger with a choice of journey times and fares for the morning and offer a choice of fares specific to each train and a flexible fare as well”.

Railfuture is developing its tests for the consultation.  The proposal can “be good” if it includes promises that:
1. Passengers can still buy tickets from a staff member all the times they can now – and that this right is protected in the same way that ticket office hours are now
2. There is an increase in staffed hours at stations.
3. There is better passenger assistance because there will now be more staff on the platform or gateline.
4. There is significant investment to improve self-service – above all to build confidence for online passengers and the convenience of use of e-tickets.
5. That every type of ticket is available online and on TVMs – and barriers are removed – eg some TVMs insist on times being chosen for flexible tickets
6. Evidence that ticket simplification is, at last, recognised as an important way to increase confidence in self-service.

Looking at the last paragraph I’d suggest point six is the most important. 

Yes - let's move ticket simplification from "at least recognised" to "seriously and substantively underway on a fixed timescale" and then - if it's gotten right - other things flow:
* TVMs can offer all options
* Self Service routes dramatically improve
* More staff available to help each passenger because fewer are locked into fighting ticketing
* Easy public transport fare and ticket system allowing for diversion at times of disturbance
* Passenger confidence leading to barrier removal  and more people willing to use trains
* An end of "highest fare" publicity and people being put off because system has become sensible
Ah - one can but dream.

I may be unduly cynical, but as far as I can see the proposal to close ticket offices is being done so as to engender strikes which the present Government will use in the forthcoming General Election campaign.

Which is why Reading has removed all its "new" ticket machines?

I don't see the rail strikes being a particularly significant issue either way in the next election, they're proving no more than inconvenient, and in the hierarchy of industrial action it's way behind the NHS, teachers etc. They have become part of the landscape now and aren't getting a lot of coverage - people are just adapting.

If an announcement is made this week on ticket offices and it's as "nuclear" as some are forecasting (personally I would disagree with this course of action), I suspect the Government's line will simply be (with some justification) that the Unions have refused to engage meaningfully on the subject and therefore it's being imposed.

As I've said elsewhere though, don't be surprised if Bruvver Lynch is offered something by way of enabling him to claim some sort of victory to save face (lower than expected number of ticket office closures, slight increase in pay offer) in order to bring it to an end.

Anyway - must get back to ACAS! (if I can find a train that's running!)  :)

For selling tickets, TVMS are at least as good as staff, in most situations. But what they can't do is answer other questions, such as "How do I get to the bus station?" or "I've bought a ticket to Old Newton rather than New Oldton by accident, can I change it or do I have to buy another?". Most importantly, they can't make a station look inhabited.

Or sell split tickets....From A to anywhere in the UK, yes, but not from B to C.

I can buy split tickets from my local station's TVM.

What I can't buy though, currently, is Rovers or Rangers.

I believe that the TVMs recently installed at GWR stations do not offer 'tickets from other stations'.

I was thwarted in my attempt to buy a Celtic at Montpelier the other day. Most disappointing.

SWR speciality then - so possibly due for rollout across other TOCs shortly

I have a suspicion that the impetus behind closing ticket offices comes in large part from the PRM assistance requirements ORR and DfT have placed on TOCs. In particular, having to cope where there is no advance booking/notification needed. The rules allow for a delay before staff can be found, but don't say how long that should be. Any attempt to define that, even a vague one, will show up that there are not now enough staff on platforms to provide this.

So, if ORR & DfT do apply pressure to perform as stated in the PRM rules, TOCs will be faced with needing more staff, not fewer. Being able to move all ticket office staff out of their little glass boxes is the obvious way to do this. All it takes is some digital magic to allow a patrolling staff member to do what now needs a terminal sitting on a counter. Oh, and a simpler fares structure would help (but we can't wait that long can we?). And a lot of retraining. And ...

What about a Wanderers or Albion?  :P

GWR has only just replaced their TVMs with a cheaper alternative that offers less choice, so probably not. Their previous machines did offer tickets from other stations.

I look forward to being able to get a City Rover from Parson Street to Ashley Down.

Interesting. I'm slightly cynical about assistance requirements being enforced to that extent, but I do think staff on the platform are more useful than staff behind a window – provided they're able to sell tickets, provide assistance, answer random queries, etc. If these tasks end up being specialisms, then you probably might as well stick the ticket staff in a ticket office. And of course you'll still need on-train staff for stations that have no staff.

Penny wise, Pound foolish - fairly normal for organisations run by accountants? [Duck]

So does the restricted availability of tickets by type, station etc mean they will be able to increase their revenue from penalty fares.

[Do the two threads on this subject need to be merged, as any distinction between them appears to be blurred?]

With the removal of ticket offices, many penalty fare stations will also go....there will be many fewer options to buy the ticket you want going forward....

I doubt it, more likely an increase in the number of penalty stations

I am not sure about the increase in staff on the platform now the minster says there will now be job cuts.  Am I misremembering or did they say there would be no job cuts, but that is RMT's fault for some reason.  Can you believe anything this government says?

small item on BBC spotlight local news thursday 6th july at 18:30pm

How do you come to that conclusion?

You can only be penalty fared if you don't buy your ticket when you have been given the ability to do so in the manner that you choose - whether that's cash, card, warrant (if you have one of course) and the fare you want to purchase (rover, ranger, railcard). If you can't buy it, you can't be penalty fared.

My experience of TVMs is that even with a bit of knowledge of ticketing and the way the machine works, it takes several times longer to get a ticket at a machine than at a booking office window with a knowledgeable clerk serving tickets

Ticket (or some form of authority to travel) vending machines at stations or purchase online.

After all it is an offence to travel on a train without a valid ticket, with tightening budges from the DfT ToCs will be wanting to maximise revenue

DfT are looking for cost savings, NOT maximising revenue. That is the sad thing about all this.

We know that TVMs don't retail all fares that ticket offices do. I will want to buy a railcard with cash along with my ticket....no penalty fare even if I get to the end of my journey & still can't purchase that railcard. No penalty fare currently unless they change the T&Cs on the railcard. They've done away with authority to travel passes.

However, I think it was SWT who have said that they are developing some form of pass that you can access for an amount of money that will allow you to travel to a major hub to obtain your railcard/warrant ticket/you name it that can't be got from a TVM - and buy it there without being out of pocket. Maybe cash-wise, but not time-wise! JayMac, I think that was your post earlier? No other TOC has identified this.

Double-sad that they don't even seem to be looking merely to reduce supporting funds needed - in other words it's on the alter of costs, irrespective of damage done to revenue or revenue potential.  And where's the wider economic and social impact in this?

From The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/06/rail-ticket-office-closures-in-england-will-lead-to-job-losses-minister-says) - Thu 6 Jul 2023 15.11 BST


and

I cannot believe the Rail Minister could so naive in not realising the RMT could see straight through the "no compulsory redundancy" offer and know what the real agenda of the Government is.

A previous Conservative Government devised the privatised rail industry stating it would dive down costs to the Treasury reform the employment practices in the industry, its failed on both these, the question has it improved services is questionable.

This is closure process is being driven by the Treasury who understand the cost of everything but do not understand the value of anything.

The railways is constantly modernising, if did not we would still be operating steam locomotives, absolute block working with semaphore signals, wooden sleepers 60ft rail ................ etc

An impressive list................before you know it you'll have a reliable 7 day operation with Sundays in the working week! ;)

What you end up with (from experience with London Underground) is a harder to use system where anything other than a normal single/return from A to B is much more difficult. The suggestion then is just to do it online but there are those people who don’t want to or can’t do that. I don’t buy tickets online anymore after GWR had their data breach in 2018. If I can’t get the ticket from a TVM what the hell do I do then? I don’t do contactless on my bank cards and the only exception is my work ID and my Oyster card

The Railfuture AGM is next Saturday - 15th July 2023.  There is no motion on the agenda relating to ticket offices, as the agenda was set before the matter arose.   I am advised

 hadn't sussed the Sunday Times as signed up members of the Mick Lynch fan club. But yesterday there was a short leader headed "closing train ticket offices will cost more than it saves". That's misleading, as the words don't really mention costs at all - just a hint that this will put off so many passengers that revenue will suffer.

And I'll bet that doesn't put the ST off reverting in future to criticising the railways' high costs and huge subsidies due to outdated working practices, etc etc.

There was also a report (not linked*, but perhaps the topics are related) that the promised GBR booking service/app has not got far: RDG have not even finished the tender documents for it (which they had planned to do by last November).

* except for two paragraphs from an otherwise absent article on the ticket office closure, mysteriously tacked on at the end!

I suspect the reason they have given Mick Lynch page space may be there are quite a number of Conservative MP's who are concerned that the ticket office closures in 2024 could be badly timed for the run up to the next General Election, as an example the MP for Maidenhead in her new constituency boundary will see 3 ticket office close and a further 2 or 3 just over the boarder close.



There is always Trainline dot com, but they are a commercial operator and need to earn a crust some how and if there are not TOC ticket sales then there will be no competition 

There was a mention in that article of a meeting (last year, or earlier) between the Treasury's head of rail policy and Trainline's head of UK relations, which was the subject of an FoI request (refused). No conclusion was drawn from that, so it was more innuendo than reporting.

But if those two posts are really full-time jobs (and they may just be hats), that's quite revealing!

Would this GBR booking app replace the current NRE one? And why?

Has NRE got one itself? I thought they just passed you to a TOC?

NRE have an online journey planner - it doesn't do bookings; it passes you on to a TOC for that.

This booking function wasn't in the Williams-Shapps (or vice versa) plan, and I can't remember where it emerged from. The article says it was wanted to save paying commission to, mainly, Trainline; that was the basis for its headline about the Treasury losing millions. But I would not trust their headline to be factual. 

The article also linked the app to ticket office closures, as in being "the first port of call for passengers looking for an alternative to ticket offices and machines". But it would make sense now, I think, to try to take that further. If the app could be, or at least form the basis of, a ticket machine for use in stations it would offer something for all these floating multi-skilled staff help people to use. That has the obvious attraction (for RDG/DfT/HMT) that people would get trained to use it on their own, so fewer staff would be needed in the future. Not that RDG need a rational reason to take years not getting round to doing something.

An internal briefing that came from Andrew Haines a few months back there had been a very heated exchange between GBRTT and Trainline

My mistake, sorry. I was actually misinterpreting "booking app" to include the journey planner.

New press release


 

from Somerset County Gazette (https://www.somersetcountygazette.co.uk/news/23839714.sarah-dyke-wants-hs2-cash-save-train-ticket-offices/)

Oh dear - Capex & OPex - MPs should all be forced to be educated on the difference every Parliament....

So why is funding (they tell us) going from HS2 to BF2 (Bus Fare £2)?

The funding being money, as yet unborrowed, to construct HS2, there isn't funding for anything else is there. This isn't the half crown that you'd find in some households, held back against the day there was a need to call the doctor.

(Speaking of doctors, Dr Beeching would take a look at HS2 in its current state of build and immediately flag the Lichfield to Crewe section as being 'Route for development).

Mark

It isn't. It's another lie.